Chronicle and Character Creation

Good to know, I've never once played an NWoD product.

I like it, so long as you're not required to spend XP on it, to gain a narrative benefit.
Oh you're preaching to the choir, here.

This is the way I've always played it, and seen it played.

Particularly with these 2 qualifiers:
EDIT: and vice versa you can't get rid of a Flaw that you took XP (Freebies) for, without paying it off with XP.

RE:
Again, agreed!

I don't see that as a bad thing though. The ST should be able to "take away", or another way to put it: you should be able to lose something if you mess up big enough, no? If your grasp upon it is "only" narrative?

I wasn't joking when I said it's an interesting prospect to me.

Few Backgrounds that I could earn in the narrative would be important enough to me to spend XP on to protect them. But they do exist...

You were. The trait wasn't considered improved until you spent the XP. Didn't matter how many nights you spent at the gym, your Strength wasn't better until you spent the XP... just like it didn't matter how much stock trading you did, you didn't have more Resources until you spent the XP.
If it's just earned through narrative, sure. That said, I've seen some rather malicious STs, so... the "XP insurance" makes sense. 🤷‍♂️
Why would you think there's no roleplay involved? You still have to justify raising the background, the same way you justify raising any other trait through experience. You generally don't get to improve your Strength if you never hit the gym, just because you have some extra XP to spend. Flipside: No matter how much you roleplay hitting the gym, you generally don't just get a free dot of Strength without paying for it.

Why would Backgrounds be any different?

That's.. weird to me. If you still need to do the rp legwork to get the Backgrounds, then why even spend the xp? The idea that fluctuations in Backgrounds is some sort of potential ST powertrip also feel odd. Backgrounds are simply narrative elements given mechanical form. Were i a player whose Background was about to go down or be removed (whether through my own roleplaying or just the story moving in that direction) i'd welcome it and would mark it off myself even if i'm not asked to. Nor would i ask for the XP back, because i've already spent them. Actually the same would apply even if it wasn't a Background, but, say, Ability or an Attribute.

Kind of a baffling and a bit worrying take for me. As an ST, do i now have to worry about people feeling like i'm screwing them over if one of their Retainers dies or a mechanical penalty arises from narrative events? That's just wild.

I feel, personally, that it might be a mindset from more crunch-heavy games, which might not be as applicable everywhere (as in WoD).

Or maybe i'm just the odd one out. It is certainly interesting reading different views and ideas and comparing the takes.

Just to clarify - i don't have a problem with people raising starting Arete or using Xp for Backgrounds, i just personally don't really get it.

Because Backgrounds are narratively earned. So i assumed that using using the XP to raise them was meant as a substitute for gaining them narratively.

See now you've lost me though.

Can't say I've ever once been denied raising a Attribute or Ability with XP because I didn't RP out an analogous narrative venture.

That's what you're doing in the story to earn XP, that's in the background in the moments we don't zoom in on, that's... not required because they have assigned XP values.

Backgrounds don't have that.

Hence I think our confusion.

If I may weigh in, I think some backgrounds can be earned through role-play and storytelling. Without spending xp.

WoD has always been kind of weird in this regard.

It has a foot in both worlds.

It's core mechanic is very narrative facing, and "progressive" or lite-ish.

But it's combat mechanics are very, very traditional and as crunchy as nearly any "crunch heavy" game you can think of.

It's combat resolution "flow"/rolls are broadly the same as Shadownrun's, for example!

So don't pretend like this system is a pure-white bastion of rules-lite-ness.

It's not.

🤣

I think we were talking about nWoD with that bit.

Or at least that's what I was asking about.

I actually agree with needing to rp any increases in stats. I'd raise an eyebrow at least as an ST, if a player barely uses, say, Strength, and then decides to raise it with XP without an explanation. You don't just get stronger. Or smarter. Gotta put some work in, either actively using it or passively during downtimes.
I think the reason why the combat mechanics are so out-of-whack is because it is a narrative-first game, emphasizing social aspects over tactical.

Wait... isn't this you bro? ;)

Every single trait in the game is earned narratively.

You still spend XP.
Honestly? Yes.
(Just about everyone I've ever played with would feel that way -- the only question is if they'd say anything.)
No disrespect intended, but I think you might be. 😂
You are the only person I've talked to in my 20+ years of playing O/NWoD with your particular outlook. Not a bad thing, just rare from my experience.l
Ok. Why spend the XP to raise your Strength? Or Intelligence? Or Firearms? Or Science? Or Sphere/Discipline/Gift? What do you see as the difference?
So is every other trait in the game. Again, what do you see as the difference?
Unfortunately, not as uncommon as you might hope. Like I mentioned, I've seen some rather malicious STs
It's a mindset that player characters should be treated as equal. It isn't about how much crunch a game has, it has to do with players having the same opportunities.

If every player at the table was getting 5xp a session but you only got 2, would you be ok with that? The idea is, whether it happens premptively or retroactively doesn't really matter. End of the day, I feel most people would argue they're effectively the same end result.

Please don't think I'm being confrontational or argumentative. That is honestly not my intent. We just have very different perspectives so I'm elaborating from "my side," but I don't want it to feel like an attack or anything. I know sometimes nuance is lost via written word (texts, forums, etc.) and I don't want you to think I'm trying to be a dick.

To avoid loss in translation...

I am largely just trying to "take the piss" as they say. With the push back and forths.

But I truly wouldn't be happy if an ST killed a Retainer and didn't, very soon afterward, give me/allow me to find or pursue a narrative lead on how to replace them with an equivalent NPC. (And, yea, I think just about anyone I've ever played with would feel similarly.)

EDIT: I state the above just to reflect my general understanding of the "XP as plot armor"-thing. Most definitely not as any sort of "warning" or anything to our ST (which in retrospect I felt like there was a danger of that interpretation). I think we're all just WoD wonks who have too much time to post at the moment :P

But I think I've actually been pretty lucky tho with STs over the years.

None that I would consider malicious.

Certainly one tho that had some reeeeal Mary Sue NPCs that they would NOT tolerate the PCs messing with... which wasn't fun. But not outright malicious.

Same here really. I just found the differences in outlook interesting.

When you brought up the XP, i thought it was presented as an alternative to rp'ing. So instead of spending time in scenes building bonds with your future Retainer, you'd cut that out with a short explanation and spend the XP, like "i dominate this security guard to come to my flat, feed him my blood. now he is my retainer." Or saying "my previous investment paid off, huge profits, buying another point of Resources". Which honestly would be fine as well. It is a game after all, so if that sort system is more enjoyable - why not?

The difference with Backgrounds is that i see them more as notes than mechanical elements. I imagine the devs added the mechanical aspects for them so it wouldn't feel like a "waste" of Freebies at the creation stage. Spending freebies on Abilities or Attributes bolsters their respective dice pools, while Backgrounds, without their mechanical elements, would be just markers and notes of what your character already has.

Guess i now have to figure out how explain my particular sensibilities if/when i start another game. Last thing i want are players being annoyed or resentful, while i'm none the wiser.

Sorry to have gone quiet; preparing to go on holiday with family always takes a lot of time, and I will struggle to free up much time for at least the week I’m away.

Got sick myself this week, been mostly resting. Thankfully doesn't seem to be anything serious. Hopefully we'll switch to the second gear semi-soon, as everyone becomes less busy. I quite enjoyed the first few back-and-forth prelude posts.

Sheet is submitted, really just working out the backstory at this point.

Quick Q: Are there any (Technocracy-related) businesses in the area you want to say James was hired on at? For story purposes, I mean.

If I have to choose one just to have one, I'll pick Sunburst Enterprises International (which is a Pentex subsidiary), but I figured this was a good time to see if I could help our ST out at all.

Well, i actually picked a Pentex subsidiary for John as well, Credicorps (wiki says - Credicorps, a credit management firm that Rushing uses to get dirt on others.). So maybe i switch to Sunburst or you to Credicorps to build a possible connection? Or make some connection between the two companies - one did some contract work for the other and there was an intersect that way. Or do we abandon the prior knowledge all together?

Hey folks. Sorry I wasn’t active over the weekend. I’ll have some more posts up in the preludes in the next twenty four hours or so.

No worries! Weekends are weekends. I know for me sometimes I'm more busy than I am during my work week, and sometimes I don't leave the house till Monday morning.