AI in PbP

Yeah this point has been sorely lacking from this thread, at least since I've joined it.

Even if AI is as useful as its "pros" claim, it destroys our environment and puts creatives out of work. Now, if AI were more environmentally friendly and was used to replace the jobs of CEOs, Wall Street bros, etc...

While I understand the point of view that AI will make everyone lazy and it will take away things like their writing skills, I don't really agree with that equating to a bad thing.

I try to see the positive side of it. I think AI will be a great tool for those who want to try something new and just need a bit of help getting there. Even just as something to bounce ideas off of or refine what you already have without needing another person. It could really lower the threshold for people who fear they don't have the necessary skills.

PbP to me is about having fun. Whatever tools other players are using, heck even if they are just AI bots pretending to be people, as long as I'm enjoying myself I don't feel like it diminishes the experience. I'd love to find a good AI that can GM for me and be personalized in a way that fits perfectly with my playstyle. The option to start or continue a story whenever I have 10 minutes of spare time seems awesome to me :). And if others want to join me in such an adventure, even better!

The only thing I would miss in such a case is being able to share that story with others and get their opinions. AI can't replace that aspect for me.

So I suppose I'm more in the "use it as a tool" camp.

PS: I also want more Weird Al in my games! :D

In my personal opinion this is a false equivalence, and your examples are not similar to using an AI image.
When you post music, in the best case scenario you're posting a link to an official upload; and if it's unofficial, it's usually at least credited.
When you use a gif from an animated series, you use it as is, and while you might not credit it directly, it is still easy to look up.
Emojis are a similar case (and some of them I believe are in public domain).
Lasers & Feelings are under CC-BY, so unless you're not actually giving credit, you're still using it in-line with creator's/publisher's wishes.

Generative AI does not credit the artists whose art it used in training, nor does it allow you to easily look them up. It's a tool built on intellectual theft. Yes, it is undeniably a tool and shaming someone for using it is like shaming someone for consuming goods made by an unethical corporation. (You probably shouldn't do it beyond maybe informing them if they are unaware; but you are also allowed to feel iffy about them doing it.)

I just think equating generative AI to things like reposting someone's music misses the reason why many artists are against it. Or I guess why I'm against it, since I can't speak for everyone (and case in point, you don't share my view). :D

I will be the first to admit I am an AI apologist. I am also someone who believes in a healthy debate and I think on both sides of this there is a lot of "strawman" arguments being made, when in my opinion I think we need to start from a "steelman" argument and I think it is my job as someone on the "pro" AI side to try and present the "Against" side in it's strongest form without hyperbolic or strong language which I believe are these points:Bottom line is that there are valid concerns with AI...I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. Some are just choosing to use the tool now, even with those concerns, some are abstaining from the tool due to the concerns and some are actively trying to stop/wanting the tool from being further developed. All three options are valid.

What I don't want people to think is that looking down upon an individual because of these views, look down on society sure but this is a far more nuanced space than other "controversial" topics.

I used to be in the same camp until very recently. Obviously, it's an ongoing discourse so I don't have any hills I'm willing to die on, I'm open to discussion and I don't mean this to come across as a personal attack or anything.

With that out the way, I'd use AI mostly because I've always sucked at drawing or 3d design or what have you, and I can't always be commissioning artists for every little thing I might need, especially since I was barely making ends meet for most of my life. I saw AI as a tool to get NPCs portraits and whatnot. Yeah I had my reservations about it's environmental and ethical aspects and teaching the algorithms to make us all lazy in mind, and yeah it is derivative but at least I wasn't making money out of it, there was no commercial use. That's how I used to see it.

The thing is, the only way to get good at something is to try doing it. If I keep using AI for art, I won't ever get better at art, I'll get better at writing prompts and editing the output. If course, I just need a few portraits for an online game, I'm not looking to become an artist nor would I put in the work required, so why not use AI, right? Well, because it starts with these little convenient things and before you know it, it's a monster out of control (look at a similar example with social media, starting as a way to reconnect with old classmates and keep up with friends, but now... it's become what it's become). To circle back to an example of AI in music mentioned earlier, I believe by Jomsviking, would I put in the work to learn any music if I just needed, say, a custom silly song to play for some friends who'd be the only ones to ever get the inside joke? Probably not. Would I want to live in a world where this line of thinking has made people to not bother to learn how to play music and jam with bandmates and instead they just plug a few prompts into AI? Certainly not.

I've seen this brought up a couple of times - insecurity about the quality of writing as a reason for AI use.

I do confess, i have the flare-ups of it as well. Sometimes your player writes a really tight and eloquent post or i check some other game and am stunned at the level of writing prowess there - and i think - am i even good enough to ST for people? Play in other people's games? Or do i just drag them down with my drivel? But then i take a breath and think - if they hated my writing that much they would've quit already/ kicked me out. Plus i play these games because i enjoy writing. It's fun and pleasurable. That is why i do it. And i hope i'm getting better the more i do it. Sometimes i even like the stuff i write!

I feel like if i got swept up by this anxiety and relegated my writings (at least in part) to the robots, i would've felt.. i dunno, dirty? Like a fraud, i guess. And if i enjoy writing, however bad it is, why give it away to the robots?

Take a look at the r/characterart or r/ImaginaryCharacters, subreddits that claims to not allow AI. Check out the posts from years ago if you suspect that AI is now sneaking in (a fair suspicion).

To my untrained eye, a LOT of those human drawn characters have the same style. The same chevron noses, the pointed chin defined by a single line, flat hair - with lines for shadows, with a wide zigzag line towards the top - suggesting a highlight for shape. I'd find it hard to tell the difference between some of the artists.

Why the striking similarity? I think all those human artists learned that style from looking at other art (mainly anime?). It seems inconceivable that at some point in the last forty years, so many humans independently and creatively arrived at the same answer. They must have learned from looking at each other.

What does an AI do? It looks at art. It makes connections between words and styles, contrast, hue, position, saturation, but instead of storing those connections in neurons, it stores them in matrices.

Look again at those reddit posts. Do those human artists credit their sources? No! How could they?! Their images are based on the millions of influences to which they've been exposed.

Just like AI.

Is AI looking at images and making connections, intellectual theft? I think that depends on your definition of "theft", which is probably different to my definition, and so we'll argue past each other. But were those artists on reddit thieves? I wouldn't say so.

But, AI is different. Because sometimes a difference in scale becomes a difference of kind - and that stuffs up all arguments by analogy - there is neither analogy nor strong precedent for this (using Luddites seems a bit thin?).

So what's my point? My thesis? My argument? Stuffed if I know. AI is too new and moving too fast for me to have formed one yet.

The argument of AI being no different than humans taking inspiration from each other (and natural world) is a common one. It's hard to debate because one's view of it greatly depends on one's view of human consciousness. Is human brain just a massive neuron network? Is there such a thing as a soul? Does a human's experience offer them a unique perspective a computer would lack? All of that leads into philosophical depths which, ultimately, each person has their own view on.

If you want my direct answer to your question, one which is rooted in my views, then no, I don't think these Reddit artists are thieves (excluding those who traced their art). Frankly, I wouldn't even call AI users thieves - the ones who are thieves are the ones who trained these models. Those I would call thieves to their faces just like I would call a tracer or a plagiarist (and they will probably respond with a debate about intellectual property theft not being real).

Why is AI different? Well, in my eyes because AI in its current incarnation lacks human experience. "Soul", if you will. It can connect the dots between concepts, sure, but it does not interpret, it does not give the work its own flair. It has no associated concepts humans form irrationally. Would AI have a favourite colour? A preference for a shape? You can tell it to have one, but it won't have one on its own. (Yet. When true artificial intelligence appears, then I'm all the more happy to accept it as a sapient being. But right now, I don't see it.)

In a theoretical reality where there is a fully sapient AI which can think for itself, I'll be ready to call its training taking inspiration like any artist would. But when that happens, there'll probably be much, much worse ethical problems at stake.

Edit/PS: I'm replying primarily because you quoted me, Adam, but I don't really look to debate about AI here. The last post was a bit of a mistake because I was feeling brave, but it is ultimately off-topic. It's just a thing I feel strongly about, as everyone can probably guess, and so it leads to quick reactions and anxiety, and it doesn't really change anything no matter how much both sides argue their views. Sometimes the safest route for me is just to stay away from people with opposing views so we can coexist in peace at a safe distance. Trying to defend my position was a mistake.

Whoa this became the Library of Babel quickly.

I don't have any hills I'm willing to die on, I'm open to discussion. I was letting this quiet, but your post called my attention and I would like to know more and learn more and I don't mean this to come across as a personal attack or anything, so...
I get the arguments against usage of AIs because they profit from internet content and also FlyingSucculent ones about a soul (see below for a candle equivalent) but your reasons are new to me and I would like to hear more.

So let me give an analogy... We live in a world were the prevalence of industrially manufactured glass has made handcrafted glasswork increasingly rare. Candle making, once a vital trade, particularly in winter months, has severely decreased with the widespread availability of better and mass-produced alternatives.

I feel like some businesses will continue (and I know a candle maker, to be honest), but in a few years, some of these things we "handmake" now will probably be uncommon, and like candles, most will be mass-produced, or rather "AI-produced" to a reasonable quality.

There is still a market for handmade products, specially considering that, for some people, they have subjective qualities (more of a "soul" maybe?).

Having said that, I will learn the hard way the few things that I wanna be good at, so I can do those "from scratch" but in most case I would rather learn how to operate tools and machines to make things easier/faster.

If that's the case, why don't you see...
... anymore?

Most designers that I work with are learning and using AI to improve their job, like they used to learn Photoshop and other image tools, instead of just learning to use pencil, crayons and oil to draw their products. The good ones know how to do it without AI. But the best, IMHO, not only can do without but also learn how to use AI to do it easier/faster.

If even professional designers are using AI to get their images, why shouldn't I?

PS: I am not a designer.

I used AI to teach myself how to play the lyre.

I searched for a human who played one. But alas I could not find one. So youtube and grok became my tutors. AI is contributing to the restoration of lost arts. Granted, most people cannot use it this way. Because most people haven't got 30 years of practice in music theory and practice.

However, every musician I know that is performing in the Amplified History genre is using AI to do this.

You know soulless bands with multimillion human cult followings like Einar Selvik, Heilung, Wardruna, and Kveld.

Now, on a religious context, the use of AI by Pagans is supported dogmatically. Odin who is the creator of music, king of singers, and god of inspiration frequently used something much like an AI. Its name was Mymir, the face on the world tree. And when it was severed Odin used spells and secret decoctions to restore Mymir's mind and often asked it for wisdom.

This is all of course religion so your belief may be that it is simply nonsense. While it is real to me and many like me, it is not for everyone. Inspired as He was, I wish to be like Him.

Does it harm some? Yes. Improper use of a tool is often injurious. Does it make the tool bad? No it means the operator was foolish. The tool is neither good nor evil.

So while I can concede that the tool can damage a person. I will also point out, it will enable a smart user to improve things that were otherwise extinct or impossible to learn elsewhere.

As for the environmental damage? Throw more money at R&D. Decrying its use won't put the genie back, you cannot destroy it either. So might as well help find alternatives to make it more efficient. Being angry at it only serves to frustrate oneself and it doesn't care because it has no emotion.

There is of course also the fact that everyone's ideas are valuable, even if to show us how not to do something. The machine allows the inept to showcase this idea at a laymans level. This is a net positive.

Remember: Cohesion is possible if we try. There is no time like the present! What have you to lose?

I've roleplayed plenty with LLMs one-on-one and I can tell that they are boring, predictable, and their writing quality is average at most. I stopped roleplaying with them for these reasons (and also their data collection, lying, stealing, and environmental impact), and I want to roleplay with humans now. I certainly wouldn't enjoy it if a human I'm playing with was a proxy for yet another LLM.

If we wanted to argue with strangers, we'd be on twitter, right?

Peace and love, mate.

I've never touched Twitter - I mean X, - in my life so I wouldn't know, but its reputation certainly paints a picture. :V
Peace and good vibes! <3

I have a good example of what AI is good for.

Calendars.

I've been running this through ChatGPT to format the data I have for the thirteen months of this calendar, each with slightly different moon schedules.

[table=ht grid zebra compact]
[b]Sun[/b] (Worship)|[b]Earth[/b] (Work)|[b]Sea[/b] (Work)|[b]Moon[/b] (Work)|[b]Star[/b] (Work)|[b]Sky[/b] (Work)|[b]Saturn[/b] (Rest)
[b]1[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]2[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌓|[b]3[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]4[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌕|[b]5[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌗|[b]6[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Selene: 🌑|[b]7[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌑
[b]8[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]9[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌓|[b]10[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]11[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌕|[b]12[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌗|[b]13[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]14[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌑
[b]15[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]16[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌓|[b]17[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Selene: 🌓|[b]18[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌕|[b]19[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌗|[b]20[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]21[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌑
[b]22[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]23[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌓|[b]24[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]25[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌕|[b]26[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌗|[b]27[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]28[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌑[color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Selene: 🌕
[/table]

Preach. As an ELA educator, I agree with your entire post.

Well, there’s hardly anything I’ve read here that I disagree with, and that’s on both sides of liking/disliking AI use. I feel there are so many good points. Including the environmental factor of AI use.

The thing I will add is that it takes me very long to come up with a post in general. I have used AI, both for text and artwork more and more as AI develops, but I can’t say it has saved me too much time. What comes out from my focused prompts usually needs so much work and back and forth correction to make it relevant to the story.

In the end it has given me options based on my requests. It has livened up scene text that I given it (but then I have to edit out much of its meaningless fluff). It has created artwork specific to scene text that I have given it (but then I have to make it less wonky, believable, and useable with Photoshop, which also offers generative AI capabilities by the way). I have tried to use it to keep track of details in a long campaign that I could look up as needed. But it always gets to a point where it gets overloaded and starts making things up.

All and all I think the gaming space is a good and safe place to explore how AI works, its uses, and its limitations. No planes crash or medical information gets messed up when it hallucinates or is just plain wonky.

At this point I think of AI as a super thesaurus that can also generate pixels related to words. I'm not sure how far it will get past this point. (Although I'm sure ingenious humans will keep trying to make it do so.)

Funny AI use video (not PbP related but relevant to the conversation )