V2 feedback needed: custom character sheets

I guess a nice thing about my DACA having expired is I have a lot of time on my hands and have made a TON of v2 progress. I've about 70% of the way through, functionally speaking, though the remaining 30% will likely be the most intensive. That said, one of the features on my list now is character sheets, and I need advice/feedback from the community.

The current forums and custom character sheets work off a system called BBCode. BBCode is OLD, from before the turn of the century. Before Javascript could do much, it let people "code" without actually having to write code. As GP is now over 12 years old, it was the right choice at the time. In v2, I've moved the forums to a WYSIWYG called TipTap. BBCode is stored as it's written into the database, and then converted to HTML when shown to the user. With TipTap, you don't write any code yourself; you use the toolbars to change what you want to live. So the two systems don't mix.

Most of v2 is meant to be a carry over of the current system into a modern mechanism, so it can be updated and maintained more easily. One big change I was thinking of making was to build a form builder for custom character sheets, similar to how Google Forms works. You could add a component (d20 stats), drag it to be where you want, and build a sheet out of blocks. I could then make all (or most) of the current character sheets out of that tool, and all new custom character sheets could be built that way. Some pros and cons of the new system:

Pros:
- Building and sharing custom character sheets becomes REALLY easy (share a link to a custom sheet template instead of copy/pasting a BB template)
- Building new "official" character sheets becomes easier

Cons:
- "Official" character sheets won't be as visually appealing (I've tried hard to make the official ones as close to RL sheets as I could, including graphics; that would be much harder under the new system)
- I'd have to build specialized tooling that would allow you to view old custom character sheets, but they would not be editable; new custom sheets would have to be created for them

I'm hoping for feedback on what people think. This is a bit of a crossroads that didn't occur to me during early designing. If I were to keep to the current templating system, I'd have to maintain both the old BBCode alongside the new TipTap editor, and the site would be running on two different tools. The custom editor would just be a text area where you enter BBCode manually (no toolbar like the current site). Any other pros/cons folks can think of to help me decide? Any strong opinions on which way to go? I know custom sheets are a necessity, due to how limited the current system is.

I like the idea of the new template system, but I think I'd have to see it before I could be sure.

As 'used to' the old system as we are, moving forward into the new TipTap based format is the correct step, I feel.

Many of us have been around BBCode long enough that we can use it but the number of folks casually familiar enough with it to be functionally proficient is declining rapidly and a more modern WYSIWIG UI is probably the way to go.
Those of us who use the Custom Sheets put in the time to make them before and, odds are, we'll put in the time to recreate them again.

I don't like visual programming or forms/blocks based stuff, so I doubt I will like TipTap. Also I'm sorry for the touchy topic, but the first thing I see on their site is "AI-native tools", and that makes me want to do nothing with it.

I get the pros of making it easier for people who don't like coding, but my personal opinion is I'd rather stick with BBCode. Or I guess something else that's newer but allows actual coding.

Yah, I'm miles away from their "AI" stuff. That's the marketing side. I use the standard WYSIWYG without touching any of their AI content. I admit I use Claude in developing GP v2, largely because it helps me do a lot of the conversion in a lot less time than it would take to do manually. I'm not really happy with the direction of AI either.

Unfortunately, there's really no in between of a WYSIWYG and freeform that I can think of. I'm open to suggestions.

Unfortunately I don't really have suggestions, forum development is not in my expertise. Maybe if keeping BBCode would be strenuous to maintain, then perhaps the new editor can have a raw HTML option instead? Users who don't want to code can use the visual mode, and those who do can use HTML (and perhaps add features which would be difficult to add in the visual mode).

Unfortunately that's not really viable. It would mean maintaining two different, unrelated sets of code. It could easily lead to a lack of parity, and require more work to implement stuff. I am definitely not going to implement any raw HTML system. It's a GIANT security hole, and honestly, even some of the CSS stuff Adam added is problematic and is going to be removed in the v2. The more advanced CSS and JS are getting, things like that are only going to be possible on larger sites with security teams behind them.

And it's not that BBCode is hard to maintain (it is, but it's acceptable), it's that it's outdated. There's only so much you can do with it without it becoming coding, and that's not something most users want to do. It limits how much people are capable or willing to do, specially in a world where we can have a button that will insert a note block, allow you to add users validated by the backend, and then add functionality on top (I was able to build that in TipTap without too much hassle). How often does someone break BBCode because they forgot to close a tag, or closed nested tags in the wrong order? It's just not user friendly.

The only other thought I have is to have a template builder, that you write in bbcode, and that gets turned into an HTML character sheet? I wonder if I can build something like that in JSON instead? So instead of maintaining two sets (BB and Prose), sheets are converted into HTML templates which are then filled out, like our standard sheets?

I like what FlyingSucculent is suggesting here. As someone who used to build websites for a living waaaay back in the old days, I have an inherent distrust of WYSIWYG editors. The amount of garbage code that would be added was frustrating when one would have to go in and edit them.

I realize that a lot of time has passed. WYSIWYG editors have probably improved, and bandwidth constraints of the old days are no longer a concern. Still, I like the flexibility to edit code when I can, even when its BBCode.

I find it surprising that the character sheets will be less visually appealing with the new software. I am more of a function over form guy, but I don't know the extent of the drop off in visual appeal you're referring to. A screenshot of before and after (if possible) would definitely help understand the difference.

Btw, what happened to the "edit" function on posts in this forum? It appears to be missing over here.

I see the Edit button myself, so not sure. The problem with allowing HTML is that it opens the site up for injection-style attacks (even the tricks we use to do fancy things now with forum posts are dangerous). While I'm sure that no GP member would do anything, those kinds of attacks ARE on the rise.

And anything like that leaves GP open to legal liability. Unless we want to move GP to a paid model where I can make enough money to be able to afford something like that, security is always first.

Fair enough on the HTML. The suggestion was mostly inspired by online games which let users to modify HTML of their profiles and forum posts, but I admittedly have no idea about the security measures behind it. :'D Or if there are any, in cases with small teams - or even big ones, sometimes.

I still would like BBCode to stay, but if I am in the minority, then I guess I will begrudgingly deal with a visual editor. I just don't like these, I like being able to type everything on the keyboard, not click buttons. ;...; (Also most of visual editors are a real pain on mobile, so I guess that's maybe another con? Depends on how it'll look, I suppose.)

PS: semi-unrelated, using the formatting buttons on GP doesn't work for me like third of the time, and I still can't figure out why. Hopefully the new one doesn't break it completely, that'd be awkward. XD

(I don't see Edit either, probably permission thing?)

I'll look into the edit issue. It's likely a broken permission. You do bring up a good point about editors and mobile though. TipTap does allow for keyboard shortcuts, which we can all learn over time.

As for formatting, going to a WYSIWYG allows for more control over formatting controls. I want to say i share your concern over WYSIWYGs. I spent days doing research on modern WYSIWYGs vs BB Editors that still exist (nothing's been made new in a long time, the rest are old and just maintained). I opted for TipTap after a bunch of research and experimenting.

I do also like this! If it's possible.

I see a lot of advantages to TipTap and WYSIWYG for forum posts. It's more approachable, avoids BBCode headaches, and gives you much more flexibility to add functionality.

I'm more hesitant about using the same approach for character sheets, though. A sheet is more like a web UI than a document, and I'm concerned that a form builder could make more interesting, automated or visually distinctive sheets difficult or impossible.

I like your idea of moving toward a JSON-based system. If it provides enough building blocks—fields, checkboxes, lists, tables, images, sections, calculated fields, layout options, etc.—I think it could work very well. I'd just want to see a moderately complicated existing custom sheet recreated before recommending it.

One other suggestion: don't have "special" built-in character sheets at all. Instead, make the official sheets simply premade custom sheets built using the same system available to everyone else. That would make it easier to do "dogfooding" and the distinction between "official" and "custom" much smaller. Ideally we could create, modify, and share all sheets ourselves using the same tools.

I also don't have permission to edit my posts in this topic.

Here's a YouTube video showing how TipTap works on v2.

Looks great for posts! 👏