All Things World of Darkness

Introduction
This first post was formerly an interest check, but has since evolved to a long-running discussion of things related to World of Darkness. reversia.ch had the inspiration to maintain a one-stop place for everyone who wants to play or chat about WoD. Here you go![/b]

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WoD/CoD Games on GP

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Resources

I'm in. I don't care which one we settle on, but I'm in.

Always wanted to try any World of Darkness games, but I never got the chance. Really interested to play V5. I am up for any kind of chronicle. I have the corebook but I haven't read it, so I am basically a newbie. I wanted to clarify this before you started. I hope it doesn't affect my recruitment chance, but if you want only experienced players, I will accept that. It is difficult to teach WoD to a newcomer, though I must admit, I am familiar with the clans on a basic level. Also, I have played some text games on Vampire: the masquerade before.

Aw, man. V5. That's the one i'm really not hot about at all, so unfortunately i'll have to sit this one out. My main exposure to this was around the time it came out, watching the live playthroughs and being bothered by the "hunger dice" mechanic and reading threads on reddit's WW forum, where folk discussed the lore changes, which were.. confusing and not in a good way. It makes sense for GP i guess, since the majority of people here seem to be multi..uhh systemalists? Know a lot of different game systems, is what i mean; and it's definitely a fun activity to try out new things, instead of running same thing over and over again. And it's of course great to see more WoD stuff. So i truly wish you guys the best with your games, and i'll be keeping an eye out for something non-5 era! I've contemplated creating another V20/rev for folks whom i didn't invite to the Sabbat one, and had a pretty good idea for it, but as i already run 2 games, i don't want to stretch myself to thin to the detriment of all 3. So maybe a bit later. Anyways, have fun and have Good Evening!

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Please count me in, and just as MaJunior, I'd be happy with any of the sceanrios you have laid before us!

Good luck with this!

So glad to see more WoD popping up on the site! I'll throw my hat in the ring as well, happy to join regardless of length.

Options 2 and 3 has my interest

Would like to, but real life kept me so busy recently not sure i can be stable poster in coming up weeks.

I've always wanted to try VtM, and this sounds like the perfect opportunity. Mainly familiar with it (basic lore and mechanics) through some podcasts I've listened to, though it's been a while and would need to brush up. I'd be down for options 2 or 3.

Sounds like you've got plenty of interest, and I would be too. Put me on the back-up list of players if anyone ends up dropping?

I've been kicking around a character concept. An Anarch Brujah.

I might be up for this. I’d choose option one or two, though. I like to make my own character and get a chance to develop her, rather than a quickie with pre-gens. I’ve been playing vampire/WoD since about 92, have run several editions before V5, but have only dabbled a bit in 5th ed so I’d love to give it a spin

Drgwen makes a valid point about character development and not going with pre-gens.

I'll update my interest to option 2

It's kind of funny. Based on preference, they're already in order for me. #1 would be my first pick, #2 my second pick, and #3 my last choice. However, I felt it more important to stress that -- because I loves me some WoD -- that any option was just fine.

I'd happily take a one shot with pregens over nothing at all.

Thanks for the early chiming in everyone! I certainly think there are two strong possibilities here:

- a longer game that allows for character growth (always fun to buff some of those powers, and also have narrative development with stakes, pun intended)

- a one-shot that allows some of us to get our fix, experience how 5th ed is like, bite a few kine, and play without needing to do character generation

Both are fun! Lemme mull over whether I want to consider running two games, since there's a goodly amount of interest.

I hear you! Having played the other versions, Requiem included, I do feel and have gone through some of the changes. As usual some better, some worse in terms of system mechanics. Lore shifts are sometimes difficult in my own head canon, I sometimes imagine the different editions to be resets, so that I'm not encumbered by previous lore (there's so much history in WoD games!).

One of my intentions is to take V5 out for a proper spin on its own merits, so I shall pretend this is new lore for myself and everyone else playing. (And if in the course of the game I get mixed up with older editions, help me self-check!)

Never played VtM, but creating some damned souls tussling with the beast within? Sounds like a hell of a good time! I have a vague idea of a priest struggling against his sinful descent, but more ideas could be forthcoming if this goes forward, and if I make the cut. I generally like longer stories, but given my lack of experience on the system, a shorter run could also work for me. Definitely interested!

My experiences with Vampire etc have been poor. I am curious, though. Long game would be interesting. My lore isn't terribly deep, I don't think.

Probably full and you're spoilt for choice, but out of curiosity, what books are you thinking of using? I've a soft spot for the Hecata, but they were a later thing, so y'kno,w worth checking.

I'd probably do things on a adventure to adventure basis building out to a longer campaign if the stars align.

Color me interested. My experience with VtM is limited to a oneshot done with some pregen characters, but I quite enjoyed my experience. Up for anything, though leaning towards the mid-length option.

I am not a fan of this edition but if it means playing a game I love. Sure. I will toss my hand in.

I'm thinking seriously how many players we can reasonably accommodate, so let's see. But yeah, the Hecata might not come into play yet unless I open up the options in Cult of the Blood Gods.

Thanks again for the strong interest everyone. I am honestly contemplating two games, one which gives people newer to V5 a chance to get into the game and not be too overwhelmed by too many options and too much lore to begin with. And another for people who know what they are signing up for. Vampire games take a moment to prep, even with published material. I shall be posting a proper recruitment write-up so we know what we're playing. And let's see whether we can accommodate most of those here who've thrown their names in.

Fantastic!
It crossed my mind, the beginner game might benefit from having a VtM vet amongst the players. That way you aren't shouldering the entire burden of training yourself.

As much fun as I've had with Vampire content (Redemption & Bloodlines videogames, LA by Night game stream etc) I never seem to get a good experience when actually playing the TTRPG itself. Maybe it's been because of the ST and group, so if there's one person I'd trust at the helm for this, it'd be @BedzoneII

So this feels like the correct audience to drop this tidbit to...*No relation to vampire the game.

This game does interest me. I have been in many formed groups that have collapsed after a dozen or so posts for one reason or another, but I can see that you're probably more than a little full at the moment. If you have an opening later, keep me in mind.

Still watching.

Still here!

Thanks for the vote of confidence DarkRaider, and thanks again everyone for the overwhelming interest. I do realise I can't accommodate everyone, but I'm gonna go ahead and pitch one of the games first, followed by the next.

I got distracted over the weekend by Runekyndig, who was trying to make me pitch a Mage game instead, so I fleshed out a story proposal for that one too in my head.

For me, a mage game would have priority over a vampire game, but you know that already.

As a forever Mage storyteller, I'd jump on the chance to play, but go with what works for you, obviously!

Stahp, what next, you'll run a Wraith game too?

Why would you be so mean like that! :D

The one game I've never played. Not really played on its own anyway.

If there an OWoD Werewolf or Mage game - count me in! 😁

This thread is turning into a whole World of Darkness server itself!
Wraith 20th is on my list, yikes! As is Demon!
Gonna leave Werewolf and Changeling to better storytellers though.

So, to manage everyone's expectations since there are so many WoD fans, let me be clear what I'll be pitching in the next few days, so that people can know what to expect:

- First up will be a V5 one-shot. Pre-gens will be provided so that people can get to playing straightaway. This game will be a good place to learn V5 system, or get a sense of the lore that surrounds it (Camarilla? Jyhad? Coterie?) or to get back into Vampire in general. Some assurance, just because it's a one-shot doesn't mean we have to stop when it ends, it all depends on the commitment level of the players.

- Next will be a V5 longer chronicle, 4 to 5 clear published scenarios, but with my sandbox surrounding them in case the politics take a different direction. Make your own characters, and also be prepared to do a bit of worldbuilding. There will be character advancement, so that we get to play with some of the higher level disciplines. Whether this launches first, or the following does, is up for discussion.

- I have made my draft plans for a Mage 20th game. Not a published story, so I'll have to write it up properly to pitch it. It will happen though. Mage is the other WoD game I miss terribly.

- Finally, someone go ahead and tip me over the edge about Wraith. It's a game that hasn't had enough of a proper go on GP I believe, and that's good enough reason to start one, and what's not to like about playing dead people? Also Wraith 20th is a solid compilation!

First pitch drops tomorrow. I'm not particularly fond of first come first served, so no rush!

Are you looking to be convinced to run it?

Here's my "pitch" (including the good and the bad):

I've played in one Wraith game IRL a couple years before COVID. It was a "one shot" (maybe 6 sessions?) that lead into a V20 "zoo" campaign.

It has perhaps the most arcane but also some of the most interesting (imo) lore of any of the lines. It was a bit hard to grok the vibe at first for me, cuz there's some really complex dualities (or even "tri-alities") going on in it, but what I arrived at was, imo, that vibe is like 50% Dostoyevsky, 50% 90s-goth-freak-kamp. (think: Beetlejuice - but in a good/darker way, or "Cool World" - except if the cartoon world was the world of the dead) In a good way!

Setting that aside... it is heavy, emotionally. Especially character creation.

You are creating characters that have died and can't move on for probably some terrible or terribly-poignant reasons, right?

So players need to be prepared for that to run through out character creation and the story in play.

Had some of the most rewarding roleplay I've ever experienced under that game. But every session was a bit emotionally draining.

There's probably ways to get away from that draining feeling (focus more on the Shadowlands, and/or more on violent deaths and revenge arcs, or community or "service" focused past-lifes, instead of familial/protective concepts), but we blundered right into it, and... oof... for better or worse it was intense.

Possibly the most unique experience I've ever had in ttrpgs.

Can't think of anything else that crafts a similar experience and narrative.

That's certainly the experience that I want! But I'm not sure that's the case with the players in my groups. Am I underestimating them? Possibly, probably even. Am I confident in my storyteller ability to guide them in such a game? No.
Changeling: the Lost (i.e., Chronicles of Darkness, not oWoD) is on my short list of games to run. I've not run or played in Changeling: the Dreaming before. I do have C20 though. Hmmmm....

Dostoevsky meets Beetlejuice is a hell of a pitch.

Dear god that was quite the post. I think this is largely a game about exploring relationships and the tragedy of a fall from the light. How becoming a vampire both changes and does not change a person.

What does immortality do to a person? How does the need to feed on people alter your humanity? Do you give in to the beast or do you retain your compassion?

How did you become a vampire? What do you think of your sire for doing this to you? Is it a blessing? A curse? What if you don't have a sire and your transformation is the result of strange and powerful magics? How long have you been an immortal?

FYI, I was talking about Wraith. Not Vampire.

Echoing Dirigible to say that's a hell of a pitch! Emberskyes we were talking about Wraith in that last post.

Thanks Emsquared for that reflective review, the detail is much appreciated. I ran Wraith once many many years ago, and my players didn't want to get very far, we were younger then, and the other WoD games felt much more edgily enticing, so that was that. I'm looking to give it a go again, I feel it's got so much meaning and gaming promise, easily the 'deepest' of all the WoD games.

For those who've been keeping up with this thread, I changed the title!

More importantly, first game pitch is up in the Tavern!

I'd love to join, not so much for one shot because I don't get invested in characters only meant for short periods of time.

Might be interesting to expand to. What would I be needing for books?

Sounds fantastic all those ideas.

My second recruitment thread is up in the Tavern!

Honestly I'm responding to the enthusiasm shown here, same game, different approach. Caters to two very distinct expecatations of what kind of game people want to play.

Here's my pitch, I'll refrain from applying in one of your V5 games, just to save myself the bandwidth for when you do launch a Wraith game :P

With that rare chance to share a game with you Dark Raider, I'll be thinking hard to put up a Wraith game soon!

Have a look at Vampire the Masquerade 5th edition! See if that feels like a game you'd want to get into.

I am extremely interested in the long game, but would happily (and gratefully) accept a spot in any!

The V5 games are yet to start and you guys already discussing the MtA AND Wraith, eh? Can relate. Been thinking about some peculiar Ascension and Changing Breeds scenarios, but gosh darn in, the time! The ST's biggest enemy. As for Wraith.. I think i personally would be a bit apprehensive about running it with people with whom i've never played before. Feel like it would be more smooth sailing if players knew each other, what to sort of expect of one another, the style and interests. The shadow stuff is a particular beast after all.

Longer the better. Always have WoD interest..

Any movement on any other WoD games planned to start out (non Paradox stuff)? I'd love to play something, even splats i'm less familiar, like Orpheus. Conversely, while procrastinating, reading some other books (instead of the ones that are actually relevant to my running chronicles), i thought up a smaller "one-shot" type VTM thing, mainly to test out Inceptors+Discipline making, detective style game and actually running a more pre-planned/written plot as opposed to player's choice open world/sandboxy extravaganza.

It took a moment, thanks to chargen decision-making, but we're off to a start on our V5 game. That still seemed more preferred than opting for a one-shot with pre-gens. That said reversia.ch, if you're offering up a one-shot I think there'll be takers.

Next up is Mage. There was some interest here for that. We're still very far from Mage 5th ed, so it's likely to be good old M20.

Looking forward to a Mage game

I'd love to play Mage! Most of my experience with 5th Ed is from Werewolf and I'm not really a fan.

I'm contemplating a few one-shot (as in story with a definitive conclusion) VTM ideas: the aforementioned Inceptor detectives game, akin to the second VN in the "New York" series; a Tremere only chantry building game, played during a certain time period; or a Week of Nightmares for Nosferatu, similarly played during a certain time frame. That being said if there is a Mage game on the horizon (some pun intended), i'll probably wait to apply for that. Whether i get in or not, that might be the needed push to try and run one of the Mage ideas instead. To get inspired, so to speak.

I have been reading the Streets and it's being interesting. Looking forward to see the story unfold.

Wouldn't mind trying a proper mage game.

Always one for a Mage game, I'd suggest going back to revised for a more consistent edition (IMHO).

Not 2e?

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Also, any thoughts on Vampire cities? Is Chicago a classic or a old mare that needs to be put down out of its misery? There are a lot of cool places, but i'm feeling a bit unqualified to run the majority of them, mostly for cultural reasons.

Revised, imho obs, has the cleanest laid out rules before the over enthusiastic bloat of M20. Not so keen on the setting change, not sure why they keep wanting to make Mage a grubby street game but there you are!

For Vamp I'd pick somewhere like New York or San Diego, places people will know from other media and have an interesting story. It's either that or pick out one of the interesting setups from Beckett's.

I've always wanted to get more involved in one of these games, but I'm a literal neophyte with the veterans who use the lingo. I have no clue what people are talking about with all the edition discussion and decision-making (or lack of it) and various spectrums of play, because WoD has to split everything up. I'm mainly experienced in Vamp, and have a shotgun collection of material from across editions old and new and newer...and then setting counts, too.

I like WoD but seem perennially allergic to finding anything since it moved beyond me.

Posting my interest in a Mage game, depending on when that happens. =) If it's too soon I would not be able to join =(

Thanks all for keeping the interest ongoing! A Mage game is in the works. Revised is cleaner, while M20 is way more gonzo I admit. But I do appreciate the thorough compilation of everything in one volume, although I suspect we'll have to take out a few tedious things for PbP purposes.

I'm very encouraged, so watch out for a new recruitment thread soon!

With the number of interest (i'm interested, but my experience is Vampire and Werewolf) how many players are you looking at taking or are you also looking at multiple Storytellers?

I see I'm far too late for the Vampire games, but I'd like to be put on the waitlist for those if there's room. I'm a big VtM fan, and I thank you for hearing my interest.

Excited to hear that a Mage game is in the works. I'm also still contemplating running another VTM game (or maybe something else), just can't seem to decide on the place and core theme/mood. I've been rereading the New Your by Night book, after Tiffany mentioned it, as the only two things i remember from it were "that's not how you pronounce Aisling" and "THERE ARE TZIMISCE IN THE SEWERS!".

@PlebeianG

In terms of Mage editions, i'd say that we have:

1)2ed - simplest rules, hopeful, cosmic adventures, with the "i can change the world!" attitude

3)3e/revised - gritty, depressive street-level survival, "the war is over and everybody lost"

4)M20 - a massive compilation tome, pretty much "everything everywhere all at once". utter (optional and not) bloat.

My vote would be M20 and let the storyteller have the freedom to build without the 'but the rules say this' arguments that might arise.

Not just any Tzimische, the entire Cathedral of Flesh!

Mage is mage, and I will play any version you offer, though I do have a few issues with M20. In some way, it's too much mage to handle, and rather than just a collection of all the rules in a metaplot free package, it makes a few changes to the fundamental rules of the setting.

Though it should have always been the Society of Ether, and I shall die on that hill, ether goggles in hand!

I yeah I know I'm being grumpy about unimportant stuff!

Take it from an old man, don't be grumpy for too long; it tends to grow on you like a fungus. I can't get rid of my grumps. :D

Really nice to see a whole bunch of us still keeping the interest alive through all the different editions of Mage, and also Vampire for that matter. My take is certainly that the edition to use is the one that evokes whatever we want the game to best represent. Loving the edition debate!

@PlebieanG I did pitch a starter one-shot for those who wanted to dip their toes into WoD, best way to learn it is to play a straightforward starter scenario without thinking too hard about setting or edition.

@reversia.ch Chicago will always have a soft spot in my heart because it's the first setting, and because there's so much rich detail to use. But I can see why avoiding it in order to avoid overfamiliarity is a thing.

I don't have enough experience with the different editions to voice an opinion, other than use the one that fits the story best

I will say that the improvising magic is what drawing me most to the system

Thanks for the info on the edition difference. I don't have the experience either, but perhaps at some point I get involved.

I'd be good with either second edition or M20.

But not the revised?
I feel like what gives it more gravity is the belief - a VA and Verbena trying to produce the same effect would do wildly different things, because they believe that it will work. Though it can be a double-edged sword, i suppose. What if your character faith and belief doesn't align well with any Tradition/Convention? Gotta pick up that "Orphan's survival guide" at that point.

Been a while, but Orphans really isn't worth it! And you're right about how paradigm effects a Mages view on the world is fascinating, hard to cover well in this format though.

I belive that the PBP format allows each player the time they need to express their mage's view on the world

Why not? It is hard work, to come up with a concept, a belief, a paradigm of your own, but seeing it sing is quite satisfying, i would think.

Sorry, should have been clearer, I love me some bryonic gothic Hollow Ones and their ilk. The Orphan Survival Guide, however, really isn't worth it if you're looking for interesting material on of them.

I'll admit that this is all from memory, though it's telling that it's not with my other Mage books!

I think it was one of those general books, that went to more for feeling than rules. That was the one where the reader was sitting in a cafe with a Hollower in early chapters, i believe. Gotta reread it. Kinda makes sense that it would be broad, given that Orphan can literally be anyone doing anything any sort of way. It does begs the question about Hollowers themselves - how do they fare these days? What are Gen Z and Y (that's what the next one referred to as, right?) Hollow Ones look like. I remember seeing interesting title on a Youtube video once, was something like "Rise of Aesthetics/Death of Subcultures". So what is a modern Hollower? How do they feel about the "old" guard and vice versa?

I've started a VTMxMTA chronicle and we're still looking for a few good licks. Posting here in case folks who subbed to this thread missed the recruitment for it - Singing streets.

Thank you, but I'm mostly interested in a Mage game, not a mixed one

Following this discussion, I've been planning on running a Changeling: the Dreaming game, using the 20th anniversary edition ruleset.

I initially spent time working on a broader setting, using Detroit, Michigan to echo the themes of loss and decay that can be found in CtD. However, I decided that there is a good quickstart adventure available, and will use that to get the motley into the game, then expand to Detroit only if we all like the system and playing together. As such, it is only a short game that you'd be committing too, but it has the potential of expanding to a broader semi-sandbox style game.

Here's the call for players!

Anyone ever run Vampire or anything else in Australia? Tales, tips, good reference materials?

Great! Another element on that bloody continent that wants to kill you

🤣
Somehow, Vampires are probably not the most dangerous thing down there.

It doesn't seem to feature much native leeches, interestingly enough. No South America esque "Drowned Legacies".

Looking at it now, 1ed Werewolf covered a lot of ground. There is Rage across Russia as well. Not a lot on it apart from Brujah Council and Baba Yaga that i can remember being mentioned in Vampire books. Maybe Orodea League or something.

So it seems that the abomination known as "Bloodlines 2" is due this month.. And it's October..

I'm hopeful, but not optimistic. It would depend on the user reviews if i would buy it.
Enjoyed the other vampire games

I'm going off of a single review, but it's not a RPG, it's nothing to do with Bloodlines, but apart from that, it's okay!

I would be interested in any WoD game.

Same, same. Wouldn't mind playing VTM or maybe WTA. I've contemplated running another VTM game myself, but that would be pushing it. I'm lucky (and thankful) enough as it is that folks stuck out in my games despite me-related slowdowns. Don't want to spread myself too thin by starting too many.

Would be interesting to see how other, more experienced STs handle things. Here's hoping that spooky October will put someone in the mood for some broody vampire game.

I planned a (nWoD/CoD) "Innocents" Halloween one shot that I'm gonna run for my in person groups, and I would also love to run it here, but my work is getting busy and I don't have the time right now to do another game...

The poor Bunyip. . .

I dropped all my games a year ago almost runnung & playing, but I am feeling the desire to slowly come back in if anyone is running something with open recruitment

Curious, how much prep do you do for your VtM chronicles, assuming there is little-to-no info on the city in the books? Do you write the whole court, each individual of importance described or just outlined? Or are you more of a "wing it" ST? How much prep is too much and how much it too little?

VTM: Initial Prep for a New City
I set up first the initial factions (not just the big two, but subfactions and outsiders as well), and try and illustrate what they're up to, big picture stuff. Then I work out the movers and shakers, and how they fit into the faction goals - I always try to introduce some friction. Lastly, I work out how the PCs will enter the scene, and work out the connections from them to the factions.

I feel that within this system there must be instability of some kind, as I find that's where the drama for a chronicle lies - what happens if someone disrupts the fragile balance? So I go back and make sure I know where those stress points are.

Once I know what I need, then I usually play fast and loose with the NPC stat blocks until they're needed. In fact, I often use an oWoD NPC reference that I have to Google each time and grab stats for a canon NPC of similar clan, gen, background.

Major NPCs that the PCs will interact with regularly will get much more detail.

Lastly, after the first two sessions, you realize most of that needs to be subtly reworked to for the player styles and demonstrated interests.

With no canon info, and assuming it is a Cam campaign, and that the campaign is focused largely on Camarilla relationships/politics and tasks (as opposed to, say, militant actions against the Sabbat, or just day-in-the-life-Vampiring, etc)? I'd at least do a "relationship web" that includes:

The Prince
The Sheriff
The Harpy
Each member of the Primogen Council (the number of which can vary)

Including a name, a motive, and a one word descriptor for the relationship or attitude of each member towards each of the other members of the web.

I find political intrigue really difficult (basically impossible, if I want to achieve a consistent and interesting dynamic) to improvise.

YMMV in that regard.

I also like to kick campaigns off in the middle, or on the precipice, of some sort of big action or Situation. So I would also prep a "Starting Situation" of some sort, that points the Coterie in a direction to get them going.

A hunt for a rogue Cam member, with the "reward" of Amaranth?

An Anarch insurgency in someone's Domain?

The discovery of a group of Hunters?

Something like that.

Just an FYI Vampire v5 is the current Humble Bundle.

WoD HumbleBundle...

That is interesting. My approach so far has been to first create/pick/adapt all/most important NPCs and then work out what these characters are up to - what plot threads are they involved in, what ideas they hold and if they belong to any group/agenda. So kinda working backwards.

Do you have any particular approach to the random NPCs that players sometimes (often?) end up dragging into the fray? Do you keep a few generalized templates for such events or just improvise on the spot?

What I described was the minimum I'd recommend doing (most important parties, imo, no stats - which clearly needs to come along eventually, etc). But I don't see the result of what you describe as being particularly different from a relationship web.

The components of the web (motivations and views of each other/relationships) tell you a lot about what each group (the Cam Court, each clan, etc) might be up to.

And without further definition (which can take a lot of work to develop), I would rely heavily on clan tropes and stereotypes draped upon the "bones" or scaffolding of the web to define "ideas they hold" and groups and agendas and things. There's little value in me re-inventing/working things that are already established by the greater lore, I'll use that work as much as I can.

A web is maybe kind of like the difference between "writing a plot" and "writing a situation".

A relationship web gives you a broad situation for them to play around in, and a framework to adapt the story to whatever they choose to do with that.


Writing out specific plot threads only gives you plot threads. What happens when the threads snap?

That's the hope/idea/philosophy for me, the execution may not be so smooth ofc.
Good question. I'm maybe not 100% sure what you're referencing, but the most common NPCs that players tend to drag into the story are those associated with Backgrounds, right?

And I probably tend to view and handle those very mechanically.

In that; I'm not going to "write them into" the story. That's the players job right? They're certainly their, somewhere, commensurate to the number of dots that were allocated to them, but they're living their own (un)lives, telling their own stories, and they only come into ours as the resource that they represent. The player will get the value (and narrative) out of them such as is demanded by, again, the dots allocated to them.

But they're not going to be ever present, or an integral part of the story (unless ofc that is what their dot allocation demands - Retainer). Often un-statted - they are the stat. They're like an ability or attribute, they come into play when the character calls them into play, the player rolls the dice they represent, and the player gets out of them the XP they have invested in them.

🤷

If you're talking about more narrative-based ones ("I'm a vampire now, but my mom still lives in this city. I go to visit her sometimes.")? Yea, those can just stay narrative, until they can't, then yea, probably improvise any dice pools needed. Not even on a attribute/ability basis, just: "oh yea, mom has probably just 4 dice in that"...

Nope, I actually was referring to regular people/supernaturals that players love to latch on to. The DnD equivalent of "we took in that random goblin child and raised him throughout the campaign, naming him Gobby. He survived most of the campaign, dying heroically in the battle with the Big Bad. We all cried." You know, when the player feeds on some random pedestrian/club goer, and then continues to stalk them after the fact, ghouling them or otherwise dragging that poor sob into the web of Cainite intrigue. Random people who witnessed the PCs doing something crazy is another example. Generic NPCs that players show sudden interest in and insist on bringing them in and along.

Yea, so those would fall into the category of "just narrative until they can't remain just narrative" (when they're feeding on them in the club, they're just narrative, they have and need no stats at that time - the vampire is testing against a situational Difficulty, not an opposed check).

When they can't remain just narrative is when they continue to stalk them. Then I'm improvising a pool, as needed, case by case basis. If they fit loosely with a template in the books, then I'll use that, or riff off that.

Then when they ghoul them, then they're getting stats and a character sheet.

So I assume it's too late to get in on this. But I would be very interested in joining if it isn't

There are four active WoD game on GP, as far as I know. 2 public, 2 private.

Public are:

Let the Streets Run Red - a V5 chronicle currently on pause.

It's a Kind of Magic - M20 chronicle which suffered some setbacks, but still endures, courtesy of @emsquared

Private are:

Yours to Keep - a C20 jumpstart chronicle.

Buried Shallow - my V20 Sabbat chronicle. There have been a few exits, so we might look for 1 or 2 more people soon-ish. I'll post here if/when that happens.

---

Feel free to add any chronicles I missed.

---

There aren't that many WoD games around, I agree. And while I do understand the desire to play in one, it might be good to think about maybe trying to ST your own little thing? @Kingo @TechnocratSloth15 Be the change you want to see and all that. That's how I started and I gotta say it is pretty fun storytelling. Just a thought.

Damn it, I have a very soft spot for Mage, and it's so rare to see one in the wild...

The problem with WoD is that there's far too much back and forward to work well for pbp. So I roll attack, the ST rolls Dodge, then I roll Damage, and the ST rolls Soak. And then if we're lucky, something happens and we can move on to the next person who makes the same kind of rolls!

Obviously it can and has been done, but it doesn't make it any easier.

I would be very interested in the mage chronicle. But I see the applications are closed

You are not alone with the soft spot for Mage. I feel that in PBP there are room to expande on your characters paradime.

But you are right, with the roll and counter rolls mechanics its a clonky system for PBP

In WoD games I played (mostly Werewolf and Vampire) we would roll attack and damage, and the target responded with dodge and soak to cut the interactions in half. And the target would only have to roll immediately if the damage potentially caused incapacitation so the game could keep rolling.

Outside of combat, which yes does have a lot of back and forth rolling, the ST system is truly excellent for pbp, imo

In part because lots of important things (like Backgrounds) can act as as a rating that just tells you what a character can or cannot do without rolling. And beyond that, the dice are just powerful/can convey a lot of narrative with a single roll.

And for combat...

Chronicles of Darkness as well as the WoD5 lines have rules for one roll combat that is recommended to be used when combat doesn't/shouldn't really carry the risk of death for the characters based on the opponents/circumstances (which is frankly most combat in Chronicles, in my experience), which completely eliminates the earlier critique mentioned here.

The full combat rules are still there ofc for combat that should shape the course of the campaign.

But again the dice are powerful in the ST system and it doesn't require that you roll a lot most of the time if you don't want to.

I would happily put up with this to get to play my Man in Black NWO agent

I mean... it just so happens that our player who rolled up a Techno has... seemingly disappeared from the forums.

(Anyone know if MaJunior is okay, btw?)

There's a number of caveats that would have to come with an invite...

1. You would be playing a Techno who is teamed up with two Traditions Mages.

2. I am a former player who has taken over this Mage game when the ST had to bow out.

3. This is the first Mage Chronicle I've ever ran. I've played a Dark Ages Mage and ST'd for a Mage in mixed-splat Chronicles, but that's about it. My Mage-lore isn't super strong.

4. Pretty much only planning on this being a one shot. Personally I wouldn't have made some of the choices that the ST who kicked this off made. And I'm basically just doing this because it was a convenient opportunity to get my feet wet with Mage STing (and I just wanted to see some good ol' Sphere-work!). So... be aware of it's limited scope.

But...

If none of that is a deal breaker for you?

I've held this spot for Ma WAY longer than I normally would for anyone, cuz we were kind of counting on him being there. And if there's someone who conveniently is looking to play a Techno?

It's a little too good of an opportunity to not slot you in.

So.... how does all that sound to you?

1. For that, I would see him as a former Technocrat. Maybe he figured out the Union had Nephandi in it and ditched them?
2. Totally fine!
3. I am pretty new to Mage too, so it’s fine!
4. Disappointing, but still good.
I would absolutely love to join!

RE: 1. I made up some narrative artifice for it to be at least kind of plausible. But you can take it in whatever direction you want really.

We've started play and so the easiest thing to do would be to just drop your PC into the shoes of the other Techno and just say it was you all along.

But if you find that unpalatable, we can retcon whatever.

I actually been thinking of maybe taking over once you're done with the story you've set up. You know, make it a "round table" (I think that's the saying..) of STs/players. That way we can all (or at least me and you) try STing and get a chance to play.

I've bumped the recruitment thread for the Sabbat game, but just in case you missed it:tl;dr - have an open spot or two in the Sabbat shovelhead game.

After watching some gameplay of the upcoming Vampire Bloodlines 2, I could see a character who was trying to figure out what kind of person he/she would be as a vampire. They would be trying out different styles, goth, techo, elitist, occultist, risque...
That kind of character is not a shovelhead

That's kinda a hodgepodge of words, not sure how any of them relate to the struggle of adjusting to your new existence as an undead being. I think someone cycling through all of those things is figuring out themselves as person, not a vampire.

Oh I totally agree, figuring out how to feel about drinking blood is first on the list.

Why not just always roll damage with attacks, and always roll soak with defences?

There's an idea for a werewolf game tickling the back of my mind but I can't quite figure it out yet to run it.

What's the idea? Maybe a bit of collective brainstorming can help it coalesce into a full-fledged chronicle.

Chasing your own tail?
Agreed, throw some ideas at the wall, see what sticks.
Use the discord if you want

Love seeing all the recent interest in WoD here!

Wish I had more bandwidth to run something else.

Oh, interesting. Now I'll have to wonder if I want to try getting my first WtA experience (admittedly, as far as the WtA branch of WoD goes, I am more intrigued by other weres, such as Corax and Ananasi).

Tell us about it, perhaps we could help your idea to come forward. ;-)

I think I got the core of it whipped together at work today-

The basic pitch is a game that takes place in three eras- modern(ish), the Wild West, and medieval times (the three times there are Werewokf sourcebooks to run, conveniently).

The players would each play a character in all three times (with the past lives background- you play as previous lives of your modern character).

There's a major threat that you have to deal with that spans all three timelines.

Sounds fine!

Naturally, there come futher questions to my mind:
Can the characters in the three timelines communicate with each another? Or would that be a kind of Ancestor-driven communication? More a Memento-like game or parallel game? Same areas in the three timelines or different ones?

I'm hooked already. :-D

Wow, great usage of the werewolf ancestors!

It would be more of a "Momento" style game- you'd slowly learn more as you played each chapter, alternating between the three timelines but all forming a cohesive story-- I'm working on it, probably need five to fill out the group-- one for each auspice and then require the auspices to be different in each time period (So if you're ahroun in the present you might be theurge in wild west and ragabash in Dark Ages etc).

That sounds like an ambitious but also fantastic game.
I'm very interested

I think that running tight chapters would be best way to keep everything sync'ed

Perhaps use a jeep-roleplay tecknique, by providing an end goal for each chapter, up front. This can help guide the players, without depriving them of choices.
Example.
As you see its very open ended, but gives the characters something to steer their actions and connect plot ploints

All three characters of one player could be linked to the same ancestor. Or all characters with the same auspice.

If the play would be at three different areas, say DarkAges in the Levante, Wild West in the U.S. and modern in Europe, it spans half the world. If the play would be at the same area, we could delve deeper into the place, for example, discover a caern which was formerly known by an earlier pack...

I would be interested in joining your game Alordis!

I'll put up a thread tonight or this weekend for recruitmenr and hammer out some of the details.

Glad to see this collective WoD interest thread still fabulously alive and well!

I mistimed the V5 one I started, no thanks to a health scare, and lost momentum on that. But am game to pitch something afresh.

I love to hear your pitch - just not werewolf as I'm already pack'ed (pun!) on that account.

That is unfortunate about the V5 game, was reading that one with a mixture of interest and dread (the hunger dice!).

Personally, I'd be most interested to play a standard, modern V20 chronicle. Contemplated started another one myself, but decided against it for now. Put some thought and work into several ideas (including the Newcomers thing) but nothing yet. Plus, I'd rather save space in case something interesting appears.

I’d throw my name in for a Bedzone WoD game!

So now that we have a Werewolf game going on GP as well, how about some fluff talk?

What are your favourite Vampire Clan/Bloodlines? Which ones are your least favourite? Why?

Best: Tzimisce. The only thing better than Vicissitude is what Alex Mercer can do. Plus, the dangerous-but-hospitable territorial fiend is a cool archetype. As is all the weirdness from things like path of metamorphosis and inhumanly beautiful forms.

Honourable mention: Kiasyd. Fun æsthetics, cool archetype (that got hijacked by Beckett in Bloodlines to great success), interesting (though not as cool) signature discipline.

Worst: probably Samedi. A disproportionally bad clan flaw, no interesting schticks, and a dubiously 'balancing' signature discipline.

Tremere is my favorite. I like the sorcerer's approach to vampireisme

I never really found the appeal for clan Malkavian

Best:
Setite. The most socialite clan in my opinion.

Honourable mentions:
Tzimisce. Unbound possibilities, dark aesthetics.
Assamites. Only after they got their full background, then the mages were great.

Worst:
Ventrue. The most boring clan ever written.
Toreador. The second most boring clan.
Tremere. The most annoying clan.

Favorite: Lasombra - To me they personify the darkness of WoD (see what I did there) but more importantly the politicking.

My least favorite would be: Giovanni - I just never got the appeal or the attention they get.

My favorites are--

True Brujah the mechanics don't do it justice, but the idea of Temporis is amazing and the story elements of Carthage are on point

Tremere sorcery (duh)

Baal not as a player- but demon worshipping vampires so evil that even other Sabbat consider them kill of sight is killer for antagonists

Worst-- Malkavian just a group destroyer waiting to happen, but Giovanni ad Lasambra I find kinda dull

Giovanni.

First, they're Independent - yet respected. The Cam sucks so hard, being independent is awesome.

Second, the necromancy stuff is just great. Thematically, it's right up my 90s kid/Type O Negative-loving alley. And mechanically, it's quite powerful, in a subtle political/social/Masquerade-y way (i.e. not just raw magic eff-you power, like, yawn those short-sighted Tremere).

Third, the clan curse is great too! Old school monstrous vampire. Whoever in the annals of history first decided that humans should moan and writhe when they're bitten by a vampire is why we have Twilight today.

Fourth, just don't look too closely at the incest stuff!

Perfect.

I think people's choices of Background dots says more about them lol

Love my little Bhaja vampires, the Nagaraja!

One thing I did like about V5 was making all the necromancers join their own family as the Hecata. One day I should do a campaign where the players have to get everyone together so the group forms with (minimum) bloodshed.

Ooo really? My group played, like, 3 sessions of V5 back in the day right before COVID hit, but I never dived deep enough to learn that.

What happened?

The Gios get wiped out in the Inquisition?

More they all merge together after Daddy Giovanni get chomped by in the Shadowlands and a peace treaty between the Giovanni and the Camarilla running out. So it's half a dozen bloodlines in a trenchcoat pretending to be a clan!

This "family reunion" plot is one of the dumb changes V5 brought. Harbingers joining hands with Giovanni and Infitiores? Yeah, I don't think so. Centuries if not millennia of hate erased by what? That Second Inquisition nonsense? No thanks. And why are Samedi and Nagaraja even there? Not to mention the long gone Lamia. Sigh.

---

As for the Clans, the ones that resonate are:

Ravnos - the endless vagabond in search of a reality he can never reach.

Gangrel - a primal descent, wondering the last vestiges of purity (plus a much more interesting tale of transhumanism than "look at all the tentacles I've put on my head" Tzimisce).

Malkavian - longing for the knowledge that you know will drive you madder.

Tremere - not for the Magic(k)s, but for the much hated (for some reason) Pyramid and an academic bend.

---

The ones that do not resonate:

Brujah - losing your cool all the time? No thanks. Plus two narratively poor, physical Disciplines.

Nosferatu and Samedi - ew. Just ew.

Lhiannan - so, just sitting in the forest all the time. An exciting chronicle that will be.

I always read it as the Harbringers just biding their time. With the beckoning and the Sabbat running around the Middle East, they have no real safe harbour. So, where better than the house of your enemy whilst you plot their true downfall? I'll admit that the Lamia and Nagaraja are a stretch but I have a soft spot for 'em so I (personally) give them a pass!

Beckoning.. stuff aside, did they need a safe harbor? They sided with the Sabbat because the Cam royally screwed them back in the day by allowing the Giovannis to hunt them down unabated. It's the family and the Camarilla who are afraid of the Harbingers, not the other way around.

One potential way to spin a similar sort of story is to lean on the post-Maelstrom metaplot and the ideas/rules for Harbinger "neonates" presented in "Lore of the Bloodlines"; with the Harbingers taking over the Giovanni holdings, converting or destroying the family members. Maybe even resurrecting the Lamia somehow.

So I've recently properly finished reading "Montreal by Night" and it was.. quite an experience, certainly not something Paradox execs would dare to dip their toes in now. There wasn't that much.. unwholesomeness, but stuff that was there stood out tall and bright. With that in mind..

What's your take on "Black Dog" books? Sad to see them go or glad the new regime did not resurrect the infamous imprint? What were your favourite/least favourite books from the series?

The glory days of White Wolf were marked by being an edgy, transgressive, public panic inducing company. With books that are sold in black bags, and court procedings where people blame the game for their own misdeeds, to Jack Chick's delight. They rocked the boat of society and stood proud.

The current régime are not as brave as White Wolf's legacy deserves and are more afraid of public backlash. Whether or not one likes the new WW, it certainly is not faithful to its roots.

The Book of Nod was a bizarre and inspiring book under the Black Dog label. Only one I had

Whoever wrote the Fomori book should get therapy, the really expensive kind.

I'm curious - has anyone actually tried to run their players or achieve with their own characters the "higher states" of being in WoD - Golconda, Ascension, uhh.. wraiths had something like as well, I think? What did the process entail? How long did it take? Was it actually fulfilling? Did the character act after achieving this feat or was it their peak and an ending to their journey?

I haven't - at first I was a novice GM such a deep investment needing a stable and serious long-term narrative was unthinkable, and then I drifted away from WoD, but I still find the idea intriguing, particularly Ascension/Archmagedom, and maybe the Archmagedom of Awakening. I know too little of Wraith and it has an approachability issue. I'd be curious about ascended Tiger-Demons and maybe high-tier Solars in Exalted though.

Those campaign goals feel so mythic, epic, and unachievable, much like the stereotypical zero-to-demigod campaigns that sometimes get planned but never seem to reach the goal (partially because campaigns risk ending prematurely, partially because some GMs often go 'not yet, better add more filler before letting big changes happen in the narrative). Which I find highly unfortunate, as I have played other settings where the PCs started achieved similarly ambitious goals after long long narratives of overcoming challenges one step at a time.

It's a question I've asked myself periodically through many campaigns. Truth is, I can't think of way to make it interesting in the shared meat space -- as in, what would the players be doing in this? "I roll for my PC to meditate on their existential dilemma inherent in being a perfectly designed predator who wants to transcend the need for everything that makes them so perfect."

"Okay, you meditate for thirty years and order a couple treatises on eBay. Roll Self Control, difficulty 10."

Or would they have to travel the world, chasing red herrings until they investigate the few legitimate instances of actual success? That could be a good campaign arc, but only if the players were REALLY interested in achieving this.

Is that really how it works? I'm not knowledgeable in Golconda, but IIRC it involved stuff like living in the world while maintaining high Humanity before it worked, and that seems like a playable thing - after indeed chasing some leads and researching the rest of the methodology.

For Wraith, it involves resolving Fetters and making peace with one's Shadow or something, which, once again, seems playable. For Mages, it involves achieving high Arete and Spheres and figuring out where one's Paradigm was narrow-minded, for the other Mages it involves a bunch of different paths to enlightenment too.

That was my thinking as well. How do you describe an enlightenment for it to have actual weight, heft, meaning? Maybe I'm just not imaginative enough, but I feel like that "leap" from ignorance to understanding to enlightenment is left vague for a reason - it's not something that is meant to be described but experienced. That being said, having a chronicle chronicling a character going from ignorance to understanding and then making the next leap a bit more obscure might feel fulfilling enough if the process of learning was itself deep, involved and satisfying.
I feel like the "higher states" of WoD differ from the typical epic fantasy fair of ascensions to goodhood in that they are less about the power level and more about personal discovery. A higher Generation Cainite who managed to achieve Golconda is hardly a match for even a young Methuselahs. Mage who achieves Ascension usually removes himself from world, hence why they are rarely encountered.

I also found it pretty strange that vampires chasing Golconda have to maintain only high Humanity. Why are Paths excluded? I'm not too familiar with Dark Age's Roads, but how did those worked? And if they did, why don't Paths?

I was thinking of stuff like Archmages on the path to Ascension - Arete 6+ ones. Sure, eventually they may remove themselves from the world (unless they take the Bodhisatva path or something), but before that happens, they have a long path ahead. Similarly, for CoD Archmages on the path to ascension have a lot of stuff, and the paths vary.

As for Paths of Enlightenment, probably has something to do with those being generally 'monstrous', which seems at odds with the humanist portrayal of Golconda.

To me, it's either an unreachable end or if you reach it, it's the end.

Like a faerie tale, where you don't read the part of the "happily ever after"...

Always seemed like "character death by another means". . . you've achieved your character's endgame and the game's over for that character.

Hey, quick question. Does anybody remember/know if this was an official thing? Auspex users being able to identify one another, because any use of Auspex makes your eyes glow blue, but it is only visible to other people with Auspex? So, for example, if you're at the Prince's banquet and decide to Aura Read, every other Auspex user in the room will know because the color of your eyes will change, akin to Protean 1 Eyes of the Beast.

I asked ChatGPT to review the official sources and it reports finding no such mention.

However, I REALLY like that as a homebrew rule. I'll think about adding it to my ongoing chronicle, as it's early enough that that could be a thing they've not yet encountered.

Sigh. Thanks for checking. If it wasn't from the books, then where the hell did I pulled it from? I already used this in both of my VtM chronicles, so I guess I'll check with the players, see if they're fine with this change.

I've always understood from the various versions of the books, and also played/GMed Aura Perception as something the Auspex user does without anyone being able to know they are doing so. I don't remember anywhere that allows Auspex users to sense each other the moment they use the discipline. It would make for some very strange interactions in the other powers, eg it would make Heightened Senses weird (you can sense things, but others know you're sensing them), and Telepathy would be way less impactful (others will know you're speaking mentally). I imagine Auspex to be one of the quiet passive disciplines.

Maybe it's from pop culture? Media loves to depict use of powers with a glow, or a flash of eye colour. XD

Great observation. I remember lots of eye flashing in Kindred: The Embraced but then again almost every kindred seemed to have levels of Protean.

It's enough when there was a memorable scene at a former play, where Gamemaster and/or player described it in this detail...

I distinctly remember something about this effect stopping people from using Auspex inside Elysium (since the use of Disciplines is technically forbidden) for the fear of being discovered by their peers.
Other vampires do not know what you doing, just that you are doing it. You might be simply sharpening your senses because you're hard of hearing or you could be skimming the thoughts of the top of Tremere Primogen's head. The "blue glow" effect limits these uses in public spaces, where you know other hyper-perceptive vampires dwell.

I will add my voice to those saying they are not aware of such an effect.

Using Auspex is actually pretty common in Elysium in my experience.

As with all of the rules of Vampires, it's not important that you follow the rules, it's only important that you not get caught not-following the rules.

That just feels off though. If no one was following the "no Disciplines" rule and there was no obvious way to detect it, would the guests be able to properly relax? With some schmuck listening in on the conversations using Heightened Senses or some Malkavian creep hiding in the toilets, Aura Reading. While I do get that the Elysiums are supposed to be (high level Camarilla ones, at least) close to an official function, such as diplomatic talks or royal audience, so nothing is revealed plainly, instead wordplay, intonations and other tools of the social dance being used, still.. Freely using Auspex just doesn't feel right.

Well, I guess the Golcondas and Ascensions are somewhat involved and nebulous processes.. but how about vampiric Paths of Enlightenment? Has your Cainite ever managed to shift his perceptions of human morality to one of artificial, alien, inhuman Paths? Have you guided one of your players through such a change? How long did it take in-game and out? Did the character actually change and if so, how?

Paths of Enlightenment are a routine thing that happens a lot in the Sabbat. I've had some players play Paths, this is no more arbitrary or strange than the list provided for Humanity (if you don't think it's an odd list, consider e.g. that it places property damage at rating 5, but has no penalties for battering/biting nonconsenting people and drinking their blood, even though it's central to VtM). And IIRC one PC did start out on Humanity and shift to some Path, but it was a long time ago and it was my first campaign, so it was a bit bumpy and not very well-described. But then again, RPGs regularly gloss over a lot of stuff. IIRC it took under a month in-character, and a few sessions out of character.

I run Sabbat based games as often as Camarilla, and Paths of Enlightenment are certainly something that I have NPCs encourage.

When a PC wants to switch then they need a mentor of course, but we make it a downtime activity, something that can only occur during a time-skip of at least several months.

In one campaign a PC wanted to switch during regular play, so I had them reduce their Humanity down to one or two by committing Sins appropriate to the intended Path, then they can switch, and have to build the Path rating up from there with xp.

It's one of those things that are hard to portray properly. You take too little time - whether in-game or by skipping it with downtiming - and you miss out on what makes Paths and switching to them great - that gradual slide, descent and shift of perspectives and perception from normal to completely alien. Just wouldn't feel earned, I feel like. On the other hand spending years in-game, especially in one that is slow moving, is just not feasible.
I'd put assault for the purpose of feeding (assuming vampire is hungry) at 4 - "Impassioned Violation". You violated someone's freedom to.. be?, but you've done it while under the influence of Beast/hunger. If you're doing it on purpose - hunting only "evil" people, to then violently drain them, for example, that would go into 3 - "Planned Violation".

Looks like the discussion has moved on, but I guess I would also never have thought of Elysium as a place where you can relax.

No reason not continue old conversations! I try bumping with questions, when I can think of anything interesting. As for Elysiums, I guess I imagine them as more an arena for showing off your "mundane" social prowess. Using Auspex or any other Disciplines inside kinda goes against that, making the battles of words and meanings less impressive and uhh.. bland? Not that much of an achievement to make a Kindred frenzy if you actively monitoring his aura to see which line of inquiry annoys him the most.

Honestly what it comes around to for me is, I'm trying to think if I've ever heard of an explicit prohibition of the use of Disciplines in Elysium.

It's been... decades since I've read any older reference book on the subject, and I just checked, I couldn't find any such rule amongst the Kindred listed in V20.

Absolutely there's a prohibition on harm or aggression and especially violence.

But I've had a storyteller that had the Prince use Auspex on me in Elysium (seeing my Diablerie veins), same ST different campaign had a Harpy use Auspex in Elysium on the group after we had moved on some Ventrue earlier, a Sheriff that used Potence to put on a physical display punching a statue bust (albeit as a threat, to maintain order amidst flaring tempers), I've had a PC that used Obfuscate in Elysium.

I understand the prohibition to be against violence, you're ensured protection from harm in Elysium.

I don't think I've heard it phrased as a prohibition on Disciplines.

Yeah, just checked as well and there is no mention of the "no Discipline" rule in the V20 core, nor in Revised core. I thought - was this another "rule" that I pulled from somewhere thinking it was in-canon (possibly from Bloodlines, where you couldn't use Disciplines in "Elysiums")? Few checked books later, I finally found a confirmation - in the Revised "Succubus Club" book - though, I'm pretty sure that is not where I got it from. Maybe one of the older V1 or V2 Chicago books, where I think the concept of Elysium first appeared?

Anyway, here's the relevant bit:

---

Also, on the examples:

>Prince uses Auspex in Elysium

Smart one would've done it somewhere else, but assuming this Prince holds a tight grip on the city, Primogen, Elders in general, they'd probably be able to get away with it.

>Harpy use Auspex in Elysium on the group after we had moved on some Ventrue earlier

If found (considering said Harpy is probably gawking at a group, reading auras and what not, that seems likely), that'd be the end of that Harpy's tenure for sure.

>Sheriff that used Potence to put on a physical display punching a statue bust (albeit as a threat, to maintain order amidst flaring tempers)

It is part of the Sheriff's job to work security for Elysium, but depending on the crowd, such an unsightly display may loose that Sheriff some points. Not to mention there was another couple of rules that they broke that way - keep the Masquerade and not to destroy any works of art.

>PC that used Obfuscate in Elysium

That's the worst one by far. Considering your regular Elysium goer is often times an Elder, spotting an Obfuscated Kindred is less of a possibility and more of a certainty. Getting caught doing that would probably bar you from all Elysiums in the city, at least, if not exiled. That's how young ambitious neonates become pariahs.

Yea, so the Succubus Club is one Elysium in one city.

I don't think that makes it a universal rule. Particularly if it never carried through to be mentioned in later publications.

That's the original Succubus Club in Chicago, which was more or less shut down after the events of "Under the Blood Red Moon" crossover book, with the Succubus Club becoming a moving attraction later (as detailed in "Night of Prophecy). The first edition "Succubus Club" (1 or 2 edition era) book is about that particular Chicago club, while the Revised "Succubus Club: Dead Man's Party" (the one I quoted) is a supplement about vampire parties/social affairs in general, thus it talks about all the Elysiums, not just the one that used to be in Chicago.

Edit: though I would agree that supplemental material is more optional, even if it is technically "canon". It does makes sense though, I think.

I'm not trying to make you source/reference the notion, and I don't think it's a bad notion either - if it weren't largely unenforceable, but also one niche publication/book does not make it a universal rule for the kindred. Canon publication or not.

If it's just in one niche book about one niche thing, most players will never see it.

So that tells me it's not that important to the lore and possibly even just something that a single writer liked the notion of and/or put it in there because they needed it to reinforce the metaplot of that particular book.

And the editors didn't hate it and so didn't axe it.

But they didn't carry it through into later larger publications.

If the publishers thought that was "real"/important they would have written that into the basic description of Elysium.

The ST whom I really learned about and who finally helped me "get" VtM's social dynamics was/is a massive VtM ... "fan" (an inadequate word here). Played since the first ed (I started with WtA in like '01, never played VtM until like '09), LARPed MET for years, ran games that were hyper-focused on the social and political dynamics (Boons were HUGE and often what everyone was gaming for and around), and was just a vast well of knowledge of the clans and the lore, and...

Yea, don't recall once hearing this rule. He's the one that most of those things I talked about happened under.

So...

That's all I'm saying.

It's not a bad idea.

But it's a very specific take that isn't universal.

And, to me, the whole point of having it as a rule, would be to dance around it.

That's just the kind of game that I understand VtM to be.

If you're following the rules that the Cam and Elders impress upon you, you're doing it wrong, and you're going to die because of it.

Starting 2026 with a WoD game pitch! See new Tavern thread. (Credit to runekyndig for planting it in my head a year ago!)

And thanks everyone for keeping this thread as a discussion for all things WoD!

Always great to see new WoD games appear! Not really feeling the "teenage years" vibe myself at the moment, so I'll settle in an observer role and cheer you on (and read along if the game is public). Good luck!

So as we do get occasional newbies who are interested in WoD stuff (with unfortunately low retention rate), I figured I might do a list of all/ the WoD games going around. As far as I know there aren't any active nWoD/CoD games running on GP (though I could swear I've seen some old ones for Demon and something else). If you know of any old/dead games - please provide the link and I'll add them in, since there is no searching for retired games. Likewise, as the "search" option for forums is currently not working, so if there were any interesting things - IC's, discussions, etc that you managed to bookmark - do share. It's always good to have more material to look/study as a new ST. I'll to keep the list updates as I'm able.

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Update: Added ems^2' old VDA20 game.
Update: Lazarus is live and closed.

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I've contemplated making a public WoD/CoD "repository" game to pool resources in, like char/shared NPC sheets, art/music, maps, rules, homebrew and discussions, but I'm not sure if it's needed, if it'll be useful to anyone or gain any traction. My own stuff is in too much disarray to bother atm. Thoughts?

I've played in a ... V20(?) game a few years back, that... maybe Qrolloq... ran? I may have had to leave that one due to Life.

Also created a character for a V5 game that I don't think ever really got off the ground. And also made a character for a 20th Edition Mortals game that I don't think ever saw play.

And I ran a V20DA game that ended a couple years back:
https://gamersplane.com/games/4141/
https://gamersplane.com/forums/10336

GP has a decent history of WoD games. But they do suffer from the frailties of all pbp games.

I've ran nearly a dozen White Wolf games here, including W:TA, Mage (Ascension and Awakening), V20, and V5.

Four or five are public so I'll share those links.

Yesss I would be very happy to join any of the options !!!

Anyone ever run/played in crossover chronicles? How did it go? What worked and what didn't? Any lifehacks or interesting anecdotes?

I've ran and played crossover WoD games but that was a long, long time ago. Sane group of players, different games, that eventually crossed over. I feel like it was easier back then, before the avalanche of splat books fur every separate WoD game line flooded the market.

We'd started out with V:tM and branched into a separate (but located in the same area bc I wasn't about to juggle two games with wholly separate settings) chronicles as we added W:tA to our game rotation.
W:tA was absolutely not my idea but the players were friends of mine so I reluctantly obliged. Eventually, the two chronicles plotlines began to entangle and a crossover was inevitable. So I gave them one... Wrangling the differing systems was a headache and definitely needed some house rules laid out beforehand to smooth the operation. Crossovers are do-able but a headache for the Storyteller. New WoD might have a bit if the bumpy rules things smoothed out but idk that much about new WoD, tbh.

We have one spot opening in my Werewolf game- we are just about through the Prologue.

This is a game that takes place in three timeliness in a kind of momento style revelations game.

Due to the composition of the group, you would be limited to specific auspices to replace the departing characters (Galliard in Dark Ages, Theurge in Wild West, and Ragabash in Modern).

Tried some crossovers in the earlier days. Some of them are truly hard to crossover, notably Mage with anything else, because the powers are so wildly flexible compared to the other games. Vampire and Changeling was weird, it felt that the characters had very different agendas. Did not try it with Wraith. My most successful was Vampire vs Werewolf really, in the era when this was such a big thing, with half my players as kindred and the other half as garou. It had to be a one shot because of the adversarial nature, with a few sessions, big fight at the end, good fun!

I've been reading along with your guys' WtA game and I gotta ask - is that amount of combat a normal occurrence? It seems like you're mostly rolling dice over there. Or is that just because it is the prologue bit? @Alordis

Come to think of it, it is a interesting question in itself. How often does combat happens in your WoD games? Do you embrace it's clunky system or try to avoid it as much as possible? Does it slowdown the game (irl vs. pbp) much? Do you run combat RAW or more narratively?

Yeah- the prologue was supposed to be three quick "get your feet wet" combats, but I overturned the "boss" one and forgot how much PBP combat can drag.

I do probably run more combat than typical for WoD games, but not nearly that much!

We're all at the mercy of the dice.. Looking forward to reading chapter 1!

How often. When I GM (only irl), about every third to fifth scene, I think.
Slowing down. Rules as written, it slows down the play considerably, so I try to limit it to situations where it's meaningful.
Running combat RAW. I use a houserule to speed up combat, where the defensive rolls (dodge/block & soak) are fixed values, so combat needs half as much rolls and only from the offensive side. Now a conflict needs only a third of the time versus RAW.

Can you share what their concept is for each time line? nobles, barbarians, wanted bandits? or marshal, town folks, Native Americans, immigrants in the old west? and modern?

We've filled now- it involves a single threat from outer space in all three timeliness.

The timeliness are 1197 England (Nottingham) during the reign of Richard I

1861 Virginia (at the start of the Civil war)

And 1989 Virginia

We've chatted about fav Vampire Clans, so how about dissecting Mage? (seeing as it is the most "popular" WoD game on GP, with 2 active games)

What's your favourite Traditions/Conventions? Which are the least favourite ones?

Bonus question #1 - any thoughts on the M20's Disparate Alliance? What you've been waiting for or really unnecessary?

Bonus question #2 - how do you feel about Arete as a mechanic? Ever tried fiddling with/replacing it?

Traditions: I used to really like the Verbena solely for being Life-centric, but even back then felt pigeonholed by the stereotypically oldschool Paradigm and Foci. Nowadays I'm more enticed by Virtual Adepts and Hollow Ones/Orphans. I know relatively little about Conventions, and my favours are spread out: the Progenitors are cool for being Life-centric and having psionic foci among other things; the NWO seem stylish and are Mind-centric, which is also fun, but seem even more authoritarian than the Technocracy overall; the Syndics' only selling point is that apparently the have some very unconventional ideas about just to what degree demand will result in supply (and that's fun in the context of the Technocracy), but I'm not sure if interesting/enjoyable-to-play philosophies can fit into that Convention; Void Engineers' space-exploration-meets-ghostbusters style is intriguing, but I have little interest in Dimensional Science as a Sphere.

Disparate Alliance did nothing to me, at least in terms of the Crafts that it consists of. They all feel like niche-of-a-niche and not even niches I am all that intrigued by, so they are meh. There are also contentious matters about how much characterisation drift has been required over the editions to get a 'bothsides' kind of faction in the Ascension War (and cough Nephandisation creep cough).

In the editions I played, maxing out Arete at character creation seemed like such a nobrainer option that I question why the system allows PCs to start with different levels thereof instead of defining the starting level on a per-campaign basis. It drastically affects the most important rolls, it affects the maximum accumulation of successes, it affects maximum Sphere level, and IIRC some other bits. I don't like it, but I don't remember fiddling with a workable solution. (I may have done some stuff based on misunderstanding of mages-as-non-main-splat-in-VtM waaay back in my very first campaign, but I don't remember the specifics. Could've been Arete+Sphere with a different amount of success requirements or something.)

💯

We (I) talked about this exact thing in the Mage game I'm running here, right now.

Arete has always played out like an "XP tax" during character creation to me.

If everyone is spending the same amount of XP on it... why is ANYONE spending XP on it? It should just be built in, so that ppl can spend the XP on more interesting things that make them different from one another.

But then reversia came along and blew my mind by creating a PC that didn't have a single Sphere ranked over 1, and so just bought 1 Arete.

In fact no one went over 2 in a given Sphere, which I had also never really seen anything like that from players, in any WoD game lol

Guess I've always gamed with power gamers lol

Anyway, it is also annoying to me that it is a departure from... most? ... or is it literally Every. Single. Other. WoD line mechanically where you roll the dots of the specific Discipline/Lore/Arcanoi etc plus attribute, or attribute+skill+dots, etc. where the analogue to those special/defining abilities in Mage are the specific Spheres.

Everyone can cast magick! So why does everyone need a "magick stat"?? Particularly when they're all (usually) the same!?

The mechanic should be Sphere+Stat imo

The problem being ofc then you have to rewrite the entire success mechanic (to also be more in line with every other splats mechanics) to where the Difference Difficulty is no longer just Sphere(+vulgar, etc) which would be too low with larger pools.

🤷

I don't see it as necessarily a power gaming issue, but also an access-to-interesting-Effects issue. There's only so much creativity you can do when mostly limited to minor sensory effects (and now you can do that modest creativity with six topics, yay?).
Uh, not every single other line does it the same way? E.g. CtD uses Realm+Art, VtM overwhelmingly uses Attribute+Skill or rarely Willpower, Werewolf sometimes does Gnossis (technically a capped-at-10 trait, but good luck starting with more than 5 in it).
Rewriting success requirements is not that hard - effectively you need to make twice as many required for most stuff, and you're mostly done. The more interesting question is what gets paired with Sphere when, and depending on what the answers are this may end up great or annoying.

Yea, I acknowledged that not everything is the same, but they are mostly all much more similar to each other: something+something, mostly

And also Changeling is a major blind spot for me (never played it), and I haven't played any iteration of Werewolf for... coming up on 30 years? so yea...

I knew I was being a bit hyperbolic, but I don't think it's any exaggeration at all to say that Arete, as central as it is for Mages, is unlike any other core special ability mechanic.

I think it's mostly like Gnossis but even more so (i.e. nominally maxed-at-ten, but in practice a PC is unlikely to see it at a high level - and with harsher costs and starting limitations). (Which is a bit funny in light of Chronicles of Darkness naming the mages' similar trait Gnossis.)

Yea, again, I don't remember how Werewolf works

But you said Gnossis is "sometimes".

Arete is "every time without exception". Completely central. Arete is everything to a Mage.

And it shouldn't be that way.

That's boring.

Certain Gifts require and Certain Fetishes require a Gnosis roll, and a few others things (stepping sideways), but plenty of gifts do not and ofc a lot of werewolf is good Ole fashioned Dex + Brawl to hit Str+1 damage

Exactly.

You can't even buy up Spheres, much less use them, without equal or higher Arete.

It's so dumb.

It would be like if Vampire had a stat called "Vampirism". And you had to have buy dots in Vampirism to do Vampire Things, but... you're already a Vampire and already buying dots in Vampire Things...

The more I talk about it, the more I hate it.

Err, well that's Blood Pool and for most characters it's just 10 max, but thanks to the Generation background some go above that- and you do absolutely have to either accept vastly different power levels of characters in a group, or restrict the background to everyone taking the same amount.

An imperfect comparison could be to Thaumaturgy or Necromancy where a kindred can only raise a path as high as the main trait.

However, you don't roll Thaumaturgy of course, but instead Willpower. And you gain an increase in your main path when raising Thaum.

It's not at all.

You don't pay XP for blood.

Blood Pool is ofc much closer to Quintessence/Paradox. It's the currency, the in world limiter.

Both of those are just one Vampire Thing. The Vampire can do other Vampire Things in addition, which likely didn't require Willpower.

In Mage there is no other Mage Thing.

The separate special Mage Things are Spheres.

The comparison would be if Thaum/Necromancy AND Auspex AND Dominate AND Potence all required - not Willpower, cuz Mages have and need Willpower too - but if they had the Vampirism stat. That also has to be purchase to use Thaum/Necromancy AND Auspex AND Dominate AND Potence.

It's so dumb

It's probably an easy fix, the original problem about buying the same thing. Houserule their arete is equal to the highest sphere they have.

I'm about to declare exactly that in my current Mage game. Sure I'll still be awarding XP to spend, but I'm also having a milestone point when Arete goes up for everyone. It helps that my starting point was everyone at Arete 2, to simulate young newly Awakened/almost Awakening mages.

The topic of Arete going up also brings up near-erased memories of a frustrating experience of Seekings, which felt very 'pixel hunt' where the GM has some idea about what the right conclusion/solution is but it's very opaque on the player level.

What's your favourite Traditions/Conventions? Which are the least favourite ones?


Progenitors, Syndicate, Virtual Adepts, Cult Of Ecstasy, Solificati, Etherites.
Nephandi can be fun, granted it's one of those morally grey campaigns.

I dislike Dreamspeakers, Verbena.

And also Changeling is a major blind spot for me (never played it)
Changeling and especially Dark Ages: Fae can be quite rewarding. Especially when very few Mage games venture into Umbra and so, Changeling becomes the only "Exploration" game.

New World of Darkness Mage (Awakening) and Changeling (The Lost) and Demon (The Descent) are quite striking and fun to play as well.

The "pigeonhole" line in particular made me think of the way Mage is often mentioned. The false advertisements often pin it as a "freeform magic" game, which feel categorically untrue, for your form is very much determined by your paradigm. It doesn't really matter how high your Arete is or how many dots in various Spheres you have - if your character doesn't believe that something can be done, then she can't do it. And belief and the conflict of paradigms is (or at least used to be) one of the core concepts of the game, definitely taking precedence over trying to fudge some sort of effect with the Spheres that you have. On a similar note, that feels like the attitude some VtM players have towards the Tremere - enjoying the freedom and versatility that Thaumaturgy provides, but really disliking the Pyramid for cramping their style.
This is honestly just depressing. One of the reason I think all beginner Mage games should start with 1 Arete is because that way you can really build and flesh out your character's belief system, paradigm and personal attitude toward magic. Seekings seem like an incredible roleplaying opportunity, so why deprive yourself of it by starting with 2/3 dots in Arete? These STs, who, from what I can understand, treated Seekings as some dungeon crawler style puzzle, clearly misunderstood the assignment. Or at least didn't communicate their ideas clearly. I can see more crunch/battle heavy groups establishing more arbitrary rules for Seekings - for example setting clear numerical goals like: "n aggravated damage dealt with spells" or "10 successful spells of your primary Sphere cast", before allowing purchase of next dot of Arete. Were I to run a Seeking for a player, I'd probably discuss/brainstorm with the player to figure out how and why the character's understanding of magic as a whole improves/changes. It doesn't have to be a grand event, it just have to be meaningful.

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I don't see much problem in using the regular success chart, especially if people stick close to their paradigms, thus hopefully eliminating any fears ST might have about players running amok.

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I've been thinking about the Arete ever since we've started our Mage game, and had some loose ideas about how to change/improve it:

● Make it a Background. This would work well with the idea of roleplaying every Seeking, thus earning Arete in play instead of buying it, like other Backgrounds.

● Make it a pool, like Willpower. You'd have your permanent Arete and temporary, which you can spend to power your spells. After the temp pool is exhausted, then you gotta roll.

● Roll 2 of the highest Sphere involved in the spell. I'm not a big of fan of large Shadowrun-esque tables of situational roll modifiers, but I guess one could add stuff like "-1 die for every Sphere over n" or "+1 difficulty for each Sphere over n".

● Skip rolling for simple stuff, like activating extrasensory perceptions. So in this scenario, you can just reflexively activate "spirit sight" of Spirit 1, but would have to roll Perception+Awareness if you wanted to spot something specific, like hiding ghost or something. Other things that can be skipped are simple effects, like lighting a candle. Sort of follow the general WoD rule of rolling only where there is some point to it.

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Have you ever played as a Nephandi or been in a game where one of the other players did? I'd love to hear how that worked out, given the books insistence of how unequivocally evil Nephandi (almost like demons in og Charmed) are and that you absolutely shouldn't play one.

I always thought that what a character believes possible is unlikely to be a bottleneck. Mages are aware of all sort of effects being done by someone or other, especially once they start reading up on the historical events involving other traditions, so I expect any effect to very soon become treated 'okay, I know this is possible, so now the only question is how do I do it' (which those with sufficient Sphere sets would be able to try).

The pigeonhole is more about the trappings. The Traditions as described have very conservative-leaning trappings (which the name foreshadows, hehe). But people have always been experimental. Most famously, alchemists were very innovative and that is why we have chemistry. And I like my mages to be innovative and imaginative too, not rigid/Banal/unimaginative/uncreative.
Is it a misunderstanding of the assignment? Seeking are meant to be a mystical experience. Mysticism is notoriously resistant to reason-based approaches. It has a huge amount of 'there is no correct process to arrive from unenlightened state to enlightened state, you either achieve it or not' and 'this cannot be explained or reasoned about'. Mysticism is a frustrating thing to approach IRL, so roleplaying engaging with it in a game is a frustrating experience. To the point that I would rather have it happen through downtime like other unenjoyable things (like practicing 100 pushups each training for N trainings to increase Strength or whatever).

Though the suggested replacements like 'deal 10 Aggravated damage' feel like a swerve in the other direction, feeling like hunting for achievements and collectibles in some sort of computer game.

The closest thing to an enjoyable IC experience related to paradigms I have had is probably discussion of paradigms in a quasi-philosophical discussion when players/GMs try to justify paradigms to each other. At least that feels like an approachable, explainable, reasoning-OK process. But that also makes it very much not The Mysticism Experience.

RE: Seekings...

I've never been a fan of "Train to Level-Up" mechanics/requirements in games. Particularly ones that are understood to be roleplayed in detail and cannot be engaged in as a group.

Like Seekings.

If I were playing in a duet game? Great. Love it. The entire things is about one character? Then no problem, let's lean into that and get weird.

But playing a game that's a group game? Where everyone else just has to sit there and watch you be self-indulgent about your Paradigm? No thanks. Stuff like Seekings destroy momentum and give everyone else a reason to check out.

If you're gaining XP, going on "adventures"? Then that's the only "training" you need, that's your Seeking. All the things they want you to say your character learns in a Seeking? Nah, they're learning that stuff on their adventures. And reflecting on them at night/in the down time that we don't zoom in on.

I/the table I've played Mage at never leaned much into the philosophy aspects of Paradigm, etc. (And I don't think we played long enough to go from 3 Arete - which is what everyone started with because we all had 3 dot Spheres - to 4. So never had to address a Seeking.)

It's all "timey wimey", hand-waving bullshit, and as an ST I think there are dangers in trying to make it "too real", so we didn't find it particularly fruitful to explore that bullshit. Because... it's just gonna be more bullshit.

We were definitely more interested in it all for creating Effects, and getting weird with Effects, and the Umbra, and how Awakened magick interplayed with the Shadowlands and some of the "higher level" concepts of WoD (the Triat and their realms).

Less about the internal, more amount the external and the World (of Darkness).

I feel like this approach diminishes importance of belief and paradigm in the system. Which is fine if that's how the troupe wants play their game, but making belief a cornerstone of your character's being just feels more rewarding in the long run. The books (from what I remember) emphasize that the mage needs to have strong beliefs to be able to affect the world around them. They need to believe that their way is the (only) right way. Why would a mage who strongly believes such a thing stoop down or try to mimic their lessers? The way that mage thinks about her craft would also affect what she can or cannot do, placing certain natural restrictions. For example a devout Chorister proficient in Life who would never willingly harm a living being. Or the difference in attitude towards spirits between Dreamspeakers and Hermetics. A Dreamspeaker might never treat the spirits in the same callous way that an opportunistic hermetic would, trying to subjugate or dominate them, for they revere these beings, while the hermetic wouldn't bother trying to appease or placate an Umbrood, seeing himself superior.

I think by setting a tight, compact and simple paradigm in the very beginning and then slowly expanding it with each Seeking, as your mage's understanding increases and changes, you as player create an easy to understand, meaningful and fulfilling arc for your character, that is enjoyable to play through. Making your paradigm more.. I don't wanna say restrictive, but more contained, defined, you also eliminate any potential friction with ST about what your mage can or can't do with your Spheres.

I think PbP is much more conductive for running Seekings (or Quiets), as it is easier to run solo/personal threads, as was briefly touched/discussed here. Plus I think a more contemplative Seeking can easily be weaved into regular play, with addition of character's thoughts on matters that are happening to the group or around them, thus "learning on the go", so to speak.
:3 I think that sort of "bs" is one of the funnest parts of Mage though.
Just goes to show that there are a bunch of ways to play WoD games, satisfying all sorts of players. That's what I like about it.

I agree with this

And I do have to say, much of my past Mage experience (which is limited) wasn't a very "intentional" experience.

We weren't discussing the cost and benefit and game theory elements to these things. We were just playing straight out of the book and trying to figure it out as we went. So what I'm saying here is totally through the lens of hindsight. And so what in hindsight I can see now was going on.

Plus it was all very stereotypical Traditions characters, and most of my experience was in the "Sorcerer's Crusade" setting and time (less Paradox). So a lot of the philosophy and paradigm stuff was understood through the most basic. stereotype assumptions of the given Tradition.

So there wasn't much that we understood that needed to be explored.

STing it for the first time as I am now and seeing things through the eyes of my players has been a very different and rewarding experience.

And has gotten me more interested in the philosophy and belief stuff.

I don't agree with the idea that it is 'mimicing lessers'. Paradigms are essentially interpretations of how the world works. Two mages who see the same phenomenon of the world will have differing interpretations of how it works, e.g. seeing a ghost manifest, one will talk about the restless soul and another about psychic residue.

This will also happen when witnessing Effects. Mage A just moved by Correspondence 3 from Tokyo to Singapore. Mage A will interpret it as being through curving spacetime to produce a zero-length one-way wormhole between locations. Mage B will interpret it as being because all space is one and by tapping into that oneness one can appear anywhere. Mage B will of course think that Mage A has the wrong interpretation about how Mage A's Effect works, but they both witnessed the Effect itself. So now that Mage B believes that Mage A is an ignoramus who nonetheless achieved a step through space, surely Mage B has no reason to believe that Mage B cannot do even better, what with being the one with the One True Interpretation.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I'm not sure how it would work though. If the character believes that he can achieve anything within his paradigm, then what is he learning during his Seekings?

Starting with a paradigm that is a stricter, tighter set of beliefs, which then slowly expands as character's mystical understanding of magic and the world around them deepens, through the Seekings, which themselves are inspired by their experiences (such as witnessing different phenomenon, spells and effects), seems like a more solid baseline path to enlightment.

As an ST, I think it would feel a bit hamfisted if the character would just try to line up any possible effect with some, possibly farfetched, explanation, their interpretation of how it would work within their paradigm. There is nothing wrong with certain things not fitting your character paradigm at all, nothing wrong with the character thinking "this is not something I can do, this is not something that is possible". In time, as their understanding and perception broadens, they can come to see these possibilities. But if you do not have starting limits, than what are you overcoming?

Just because you believe you can hypothetically achieve something doesn't mean that you can do it right now. I can learn how to drive a ground vehicle, that does not mean I have the proficiency to drive one already. Seekings reduce need for tools (eventually), increase efficiency/competence/reliability of doing magick, and give access to higher-level Effects (by way of giving access to higher Spheres).
Well how do you imagine people learn about the world and work out how the world works? When you first confronted something outside your paradigm IRL, like a magnet levitating a frog in a lab, was your conclusion 'oh no, this cannot be, this is fake, millions of scientists engaged in study of diamagnetism are conspiring to fake those experiments! Or maybe an evil demon is messing with my senses and I can never rely on empiricism anymore!', or was it 'huh, this is interesting, I wonder how that works, I need to study more'?

Similarly to the above, in the game, when 'your' (your PC's) fellow Hermetic blows up a HITMark chasing you, would you think that is impossible and your buddy is deceiving you by making some sort of trick, or would you conclude that you observed an interesting phenomenon and would be curious to figure out how that works and how to replicate it (and maybe suspect your buddy has the wrong explanation how that works)?

I have this impression that when people advocate for 'narrowing' of paradigms in MtA, they disregard major cognitive faculties/tools that humans have and employ when they manage their paradigms, discover the world, and try to figure out how it works and explain it through their paradigms. But those faculties are why people can have paradigms at all.

How about a change of topic?

If you were to join/run a VtM game, which sect would you want to play as? What themes, moods, ideas would you want to explore?

On the low low low chance that I would play a vampire in VtM (because at this point I would rather play a Revenant), I think it would be interesting to explore the Inconnu (they're mysterious and all sects are wary of messing with them according to some claims). Failing that, Anarchs seem like a general default.

I used to be more intrigued by the Sabbat, but the more I looked into it, the more it turned out that the things I found interesting about the Sabbat were just a thin paint coating, and I did not enjoy such a bait-and-switch.

Why revenants specifically and not a regular ghoul? Any family in particular you want to play or is it something about revenants in general that you find interesting?

Several reasons:

- I like that Revenants are more sustainable (recovering 1 BP/day).
- I like that their powers are innate, inborn, not something they have to get externally each month.
- I like the idea of a 'weirdo' dynasty, one where the whole family knows and understands all the wainscot stuff and is on the same page about it. I find it harder to imagine relationships with 'normie' relatives a non-revenant ghoul would have and it would not be something I'd enjoy.
- There are two families of Revenants that I would be inclined to play. In fact, these two dynasties are so evocative for me that I classify many (most?) of my character concepts as leaning towards one or the other. The Obertus family are the 'natural' one of the two for me, easy to play but not as exciting of the two: obsessive, introverted, studious, secretive, and something of a wallflower, and most certainly not very social. The Zantosa family are the 'fascinating hard mode', more fun but more exhausting to play and easier to mess up: hedonistic, extraverted, social, spotlight-hogging, and not at all subtle.

One thing that kind of puts me off revenants is their distorted upbringing. I feel like it would be rather hard to get into the mind of a character who grew up in such a twisted environment, something akin to Leatherface's clan from Texas Chainsaw Massacre or the crazy families from Hills Have Eyes and those Rob Zombie's flicks. I'm all for exploring the character's traumas and such, but the revenant's baggage is a bit much.

I think playing Giovanni revenant can be alright, in line with their regular schtick.

See, this is the difference in how I expect the 'internals' of being a revenant individual/family to be like. They're a project meant to be stable for centuries. Elders who started this project want it to be a well-functioning organism, not a dysfunctional wreck. So do the members of the family. So assume that below all the sensationalism (written from a normie PoV) about crazy wrecks and trauma, there's an underlayer that is bizarre but not dysfunctional, and individuals to whom all the weird stuff is just not traumatic in a way it might be to someone with a more society-conformist upbringing.

The comedic take on that would be something like the Addams family, but I don't know if there's a quick way of conveying what I imagine a serious take on that would be. I guess maybe the Fly II and Deus Ex II come close but are from a totally wrong genre: the two respective protagonists grew up in very much not normal circumstances, and there's a lot of not so good stuff involved in that, but their upgringers ensured they grow up well-adjusted, well-functioning, mentally healthy, and reasonably well adapted to the lives set before them.

The scarce material on them that I've read definitely gave me the impression that they are very disfunctional and bizzare, in a very Sabbat way. The difference is that they are still human, which makes their childhoods much less palpatable. I believe the majority of revenants follow Paths instead of Humanity, which is quite telling.

I find that they follow Path as indicative that they are more compatible in terms of worldviews with the worldviews of their respective vampiric patrons, and that what might be shocking and traumatic to normies is not to them. Trying to understand them through the lenses and biases of the Path of Humanity is probably doing them a disservice, I think.

I clicked all four in the poll.

• Camarilla - classic tropes. A lot of vampire fiction, including for example True Blood, involves local bosses leading to regional bosses leading to some global hierarchy. The coterie gets involved in local issues and slowly becomes exposed to the machinations of elders. So much to game there.
• Anarchs - As soon as you introduce the global machinations, then you have the immediate responses to confirm or to rebel. The Convention of Thorns did not end the Anarch Revolt, but how do you avoid falling under the heel of the true monsters and keep your humanity?
• Sabbat - my favorite sect to run as Storyteller. The bizarre and grotesque philosophies in a melting pot of competing drives provides a lot to explore. For the player, what is it to be human, and the corollary, what motivates you if you're not? Part and parcel with the Sabbat comes the Black Hand/False Hand.
• Inconnu - I always include these in my games but I'm not sure how relevant they are to play. After all, the general consensus is that they are outside the jihad, so their motivations are more elusive and vague.
• Tal'mahe'rha - another faction. Two of my recent games focused heavily on them, first leading the coterie/pack away from the established powers, and into the mysterious Gehenna cult that is the true black hand. What do the eldest fear, and what mysteries lie deep in the shadows of Enoch?

I'd add another option I read in the v5 corebook: Unbound. What if your group, isolated at conception, thinks they're the only vampires that exist? I ran this as a premise here a number of years ago, and tied of into the mystery of the Beckoning, with the Sabbat entirely abandoning Montreal.

Maybe I'm a basic bitch but the Cam presents such a fertile field for storytelling. I can never get enough.

I'd love a non-standard setting for that (Dark Ages, Victorian, or just non-American modern day), but I'll play in a Cam game any day if the week.

The Cam are the ones who really put the Masquerade, in Vampire: the Masquerade, afterall.

I clicked Anarchs too, but it's honestly a pretty niche game that I'd be interested in Anarchs (and that would be one that basically eschewed the social and political focus of "normal" games and focused on something "grittier"/Street level/survival oriented).

I clicked Camarillla because I still haven't gotten to play a classic Ventrue or Tremere blood mage for more than a session or so, but obviously I love Tzimice and Old Clan Tzimice and True Brujah

New to the forums, new to the thread. Very interested in any of this.

I clicked Camarilla, but honestly, I'd play Sabbat if there was a chronicle revolving around a Sabbat pack infiltrating a city for the first time.

So on a cursory look it's mostly Cam/Anarch game folks are interested in, huh.

I've been tentatively contemplating getting another WoD game up, but have been flip-flopping between ideas, unable to settle on something concrete. Don't really want a repeat of the previous attempt that ended in quite a faux pas, in part, I think, because it lacked a solid, decided on concept. And to be honest, I'd really like to play some Vampire myself, experience the goodness. We'll see, I suppose.

If one of us did start a Cam/Anarch game, what would be the preference:

The only option that didn't appeal to me is "Action Adventure". Not really my thing to run/play in.

As for my own mindset in working on the myriad of ideas for potential chronicles, I see the "sandbox" style play as a foundation on top of which other themes can be layered. I fumbled quite a bit with the shovelhead chronicle, due to my inexperience as a pbp player and ST, with the beginning portion of the game being way too "box-offed", too restrictive to be enjoyably interactive for my players, I feel, so I am a bit concerned that similar scenario can happen with "Fledgling" type chronicle. This theme is so very rich for exploration, which I would very much like to experience myself, but the thought does play in the back of my head. Which is why I've been trying to think up different ways for a potential new chronicle to begin with this openness and freedom out of the gate. The "street level struggles" sounds like a good option - the characters can begin completely fresh and be immediately thrown into a developing situation with a bunch of options and ways to react.

Always down for 'personal horror" exploration, don't think I'm smart enough to set-up a game where "murder mystery" takes central stage, though would love to play one of those.

Am curious what you meant by "Archon troubleshooters". I've been reading up on a lot of Anarch material lately and I think their idea of troubleshooting an "archon problem" would differ quite a bit from at least nominally Camarilla aligned Kindred.

Looks like a strong showing for a traditional xxxx by night game, or which there are many published.

As to Archon games, V:tM is rife with the possibility of 'higher level' play, so to speak, as greatly summarized by AI:

Ah, so the characters are the archons. Gotcha. I'm familiar with both Red List books, but haven't read "Archons & Templars" yet, which I imagine is the main sourcebook for these types of chronicles.

One more poll to help prospective Storytellers narrow the choices (choose one or more systems, and one or more settings):

Figured I'd bump this little list what with all new arrivals and increased interest. Feel free to add or correct as needed.Updates: