AI in PbP

So i've been skimming through reddit's /r/pbp forum when i saw this post complaining about supposed prevalence of AI in discord pbp spaces. I knew that folk use it for character portraits and only recently, to my surprise, found out that it is also used to help write actual game posts or in rules/setting creation. So i wanted to ask:

How do you feel about AI in PbP? What are your thought on your players/ST's using it? Do you use it yourself or not and why?

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My personal take can be summarized with question - why? I get using it for pictures, though i personally don't do that as i find algorithm-created images jarring - i look at them and i feel nothing. They can and do give general visual representation of locale or character, but if the feeling it gives is "hollow" or "dead", then the point of even making/using it is kinda lost on me. I suppose it can be useful for your more visual-oriented players.

The writing robots are the weirdest bit to me. The whole fun and enjoyment of PbP type game is to write, so why would you give the juiciest bit to someone else? Similarly with ideas and concepts - the problem (i honestly thought) of us "creative" types is that we have too damn many ideas. Why put robots working to rehash some old ones when i've got a headache thinking about all of mine?

What i do agree with is that these pseudo-ai's are good for manual stuff. Codes, templates, math, etc. That would be the general outtake - make robots do manual boring work, leave fun intellectual work for us to enjoy.

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Anyway, i'd like to hear from everyone. I'm not a stubborn grump, nor am i antiAI, just looking to get the folk's perspective, as this is the first time i actually became interested in the topic.

I am very hostile to the entire concept of generative AI.
In PbP I tolerate the use of AI for creating character portraits and such things, but I would rather sleep in a bed of rusty nails than use something like that myself though. I steal art from the internet myself, thank you very much!

As for text generation, I have not seen anyone use it for that yet. I think that might be a reason for me to never want to play with that person ever again. I play here to interact with humans. If I wanted to interact with a machine I would call any customer support. -.-
I also don't understand why anyone would want to use AI for things like generating ideas. I do a fair bit of solo RP as well and there are a ton of AI oracles/GM emulators out there. Rolling on the random tables is genuinely one of the most fun part for me. I don't even necessarily need to play a game. Sometimes I just bust out the old Mythic Emulator and roll up a little short story. Creating a machine that skips this step is utterly insane to me.

Like any tool, there's a place for AI in gaming and it depends on the GM & players what that place might be.

I've used AI in art generation for characters (as a player) and for a great deal more as a GM. I get that there's ethical concerns with the sourcing of AI modeling and who/what profits from it. I do. It's a valid concern but, for me, it's not any less of a concern than re-using art scavenged from the Internet.

As for non-art uses of AI, I've used it to answer questions or find details in a text a lot faster than I could by going thru it myself. I do realize that AI can be prone to hallucinating so I'll at least verify things if I feel unsure if the answer. I've also used it to generate names for objects, NPCs, locations & the like if I need them quickly or are just stuck without good inspiration. I don't feel like that invalidates the creative process any more than using a random roll table.

AI GMs are a thing that I've felt have been in the works for a while now. A generative AI GM RPG experience would have a broad & deep market once it's matured but currently just isn't viable. I feel like using an AI GM is very similar to solo-gaming. Although I use AI in my games, I don't feel like using an AI GM is something I'd enjoy. I use AI to enhance a game I run for my players and the players are the point of running the game for me. Not having the social experience of playing with others obviates the point of RPGs, IMHO.

I use AI for art generation. I also use ChatGPT for sparring.
For instance, this Daggerheart game I just put up
All the ideas are mine, but ChatGPT helped me ask some questions to further develop some elements. And it helped me come up with some names, an area where I struggle :D.
But that is the extent I use AI for pbp. I tried having it help me craft a Pathfinder 1e character, with all their feats, traits and such, but it hallucinated way too much to be useful.

I have tried a few times to make text posts, but they are never good enough, so I have stopped trying

I personally steer clear of AI. I have nothing against people who do use it. My reason is two-fold:

1. I fear that using AI to assist me creatively will diminish my own creativity.

2. Both my "art" and ideas are so cheesy and weird people have asked me if I use AI, so I probably don’t need it if people can’t tell the difference.

I try to avoid AI as much as possible (and it's becoming increasingly difficult these days), mostly because I have several artist friends who are militantly against AI due to unethical "training" practices.

For starters
Environmental concerns as well. But it's not something that can be ignored, so I've dabbled in it to get a better understanding. My personal red line here is that as long as I'm not using it for derivate content that's being monetized a.k.a. making money off of other creative people's work, I'm ok giving it a go.

AI art in my experience tends to come out quite convoluted. Don't know why, but as soon as it picks up certain words, especially the fantasy related ones, it deems it appropriate to insert weird d20s everywhere. That's just the tip of the iceberg, I've used AI for character and NPC portraits but even when they don't seem too soulless and dead inside, it usually takes a couple of re-typings of the prompt to get something at least passable. And by that point, I'd rather just put that energy into surfing the net for some actual, human made art to use.

I haven't used the language aspect of it in any of my PbP games, and nor would I want that. It's taking all the fun and creativity out of my hands, which in turn makes the actual posting feel like a drag I just need to get done. I play PbP to enjoy myself, not to add obligations to my plate, especially not when I already have work and so many other things in my daily life.

I have, however, used it as part of an experiment in another forum where we turn our logs of a pro wrestling manager game into narratives, writing out the matches and interview segments. It seemed interesting at first, but very repetitive and soulless after the first couple of shows, plus as the content went on, it lost track of previous information and began contradicting itself. It was a bad enough experience to push me away from even thinking about using it in any other creative writing endeavours.

It's very good to handle rule questions/check past histories in a long term campaign and improve posts.
Honestly NotebookLM has been a boon.

AI is the future if you ask me. No use resisting it.

I used AI for art, and as a sparring partner. AI is also great to spell check bigger posts.

In the end, the creative design of a character/world/post is always with the actual person.
I put in my ideas, but AI really helps.

Honestly? It's lazy.

We had a campaign a while back that one player dropped as soon as he realized another player was relying on AI for their posts. Arguably the harshest response I've personally witnessed regarding AI in PbP.

I'm not that against it, but it strikes me as the height of laziness. Much like using the word "very." To paraphrase, "Language was invented for one reason, boys—to tell stories—and, in that endeavor, laziness will not do."

I use AI only as a GM. Mostly it is for random event generation (traps, random encounters, etc) an occasional filler content . Sometimes the party wants info on something that is not plot important and I will use AI to generate fluff. I tailor the prompt and still proof it to match the existing story but find it useful for things like this. I know some say no to any AI content but I have limited play time and do not always have time to generate descriptive content. I often have to re-write the text but just getting a block of text as a writing prompt helps speed my writing.

I use AI a lot. I use it to gather ideas, compile information, simplify my thoughts and double check my conventions of writing.

My brain is a chaotic mess of disorganized of thrown up knowledge of random not important bull-shit.
My writing skills are of that of a uneducated middle schoolers with visions of grandeur.
I am not ever close to be an award winning author.
I not pretending to be. I don't have the energy to work that hard.

AI is a tool I use to make sure my ideas are flavorful and understandable to those who play with me.
It is a tool I heavily rely on to help reduce my stress and decrease the amount of energy I need to put forth to make a campaign good.

I do pbp as I like writing and being creative, so I just don't get using AI for posts as writing is the point, I won't get better if I rely on a tool. I would be pretty disappointed to learn I'm putting in a lot of effort and finding out someone else just isn't and is throwing it through AI in the same game. It's also brings up problems like not reacting to others posts (which I have suspected as a sign of it before), getting facts wrong and such.

Including with rules, as its predictive instead of actually 'knowing' - for example Gemini often answers wrong for pathfinder rulings as it gets confused and mixes up 5e.

However Notebook LM can be fun to mess around with to see its response on games, and as others have mentioned finding details quickly. You just need to be aware it could be incorrect.

Okay, so as someone who has literally never touched art-robots before - can someone explain (or show with a specific post) how they use it for responses? Do you have to feed it previous game posts to than prompt it with a short order, like "write a response how Zeke the Troll does X while battling monster Y" or do you write basic responses for AI to expand/improve upon? It'd be great to see the prompt used->AI output-> final post.

It is also interesting that both here and on reddit AI-users cite increased efficiency and time saved, while anti-AI folk feel like they are the ones wasting their time playing with people using AI.
I've seen people say that a couple of times, but i don't get. What's wrong with regular spell-checking built-in the browser?

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On a side note: goddess, do i hate the word "content" and how widespread it became.

Depends on the table. I'm fine with not using them, and I'm fine with players who want to use them. I love using it for art.

It's very easy to spot AI usage when people use it to write 90%+ of the post. I have nothing against it, but when I spot it, it does make me feel like the player isn't fully engaged with their character. I used it for a few posts in the past, and then dropped it because it didn't feel like my character any more.

That said, I don't understand the anti AI movement. It's just a tool.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, not everyone sees PbP as a way to express creative outlet by writing. Some people play it because they have no other way to get their RPG fix. Maybe they're not good writers or they're not confident at it. If it helps them communicate their point across by using AI, so be it, let people have fun.

Honestly I have mixed results with AI art and more often than not just search form images on the web. That said I have tried several image generators and they all seem to have different "best approach" text prompt methods. Some just take key words while others allow multiple nouns with adjectives to blend them and others take full on sentences or paragraphs.

As for AI text generation, as a user or it I do have to point out that it has it's own weaknesses. The most common is that it does not always separate official systems, house rules, settings, historical records etc. Thus a request for rule or details on a specific setting or game system is not guaranteed to be accurate. But for just spewing out an mostly coherent string of words to use as a writing prompt, for those of us that have limited time/skill/creativity, it can be useful. Good for scenery or help with transitions. I often have plot points in games but sometimes have trouble encouraging the story to go from A to B. But with an AI prompt for 3 possible methods to get from A to B when I am stuck then picking the best or mixing results I seem to get players to move with less difficulty. I enjoy writing but seems to think in ways not common to others so getting an "2nd" opinions can help.

I can see how players, and GM can dislike any who simply copy past posts to generate responses then drop those into the game. Especially as all LLM has flaws as noted above. If we wanted to play with AI that's what we would do. But I see no harm in someone using AI to expand text. As I mentioned I do not use AI as a player, it never gets an NPC "voice" the way I want any time I try it as a GM so I do not trust it with my own characters, besides the fact that having AI pay me character would negate the point of playing.

I have very mixed feelings about the generative AI in general, and mostly negative ones towards its usage.

I like the concept, I'm fond of AIs and I love neural networks, but the current state of ethics - or lack thereof - surrounding generative AI is abysmal. I'm an artist, and I'm not going to use something that is actively harming the field I love. And I don't exactly see the point either, in most cases; it's a creative hobby, why would you leave the creativity to someone or something else?

I can tolerate it when people use AI for generating avatars - I get the appeal, obviously not everyone can draw their own avatars, and it is something more or less essential for games. However, in my personal opinion, grabbing an image off the internet and using it with credit is significantly more respectful to the artist than using a tool which plagiarizes their work with no credit whatsoever. Yes, both are done without permission; but at least in one case you are acknowledging who made the work or where you sourced it from, while generated AI art/writing/music is just pure blatant plagiarism, at least in my eyes. (Theoretically, there can be an ethically trained AI. But is there? Unless someone trained it themselves, they have no guarantee that it is.)

Anyway, I firmly believe that generative AI usage should be disclosed in the game information, or by the player who is doing it. In this case, I can simply not interact with them, and we will stay in our spheres with no conflict. Discovering that someone's been using AI without mentioning it... feels unpleasant.

And if someone uses it to generate non-essential art - landscapes, for example, ambiance pieces - then I am gradually growing more and more disinclined to ever play with this person with every new case. I don't begrudge it (well, maybe a little), everyone picks their own stance on these tools. But if they don't care enough to not do it in games we share after I voice my dislike of it, then we really just shouldn't be paying together.

As for the generated writing, that would turn me off playing with someone completely. Except, I suppose, in games where it is the entire point: I'd play with an AI, as long as I am fully aware of it being AI. :D (Edit: and, of course, assuming that AI is not doing literary writing, only decisions; otherwise it's plagiarism issue again.) But if it's a case of someone having a machine calculate their post and then claim that they fully wrote it? That would make me cease interacting with the person immediately.

Generative AI is fun, but currently it's really difficult to use ethically, and I don't like witnessing it being used, so I steer clear of games and players which mention using generative AI.

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In short: I think using generative AI in PbP for anything but basic planning or avatars is in bad taste and I would rather not play with people who do it. Also, disclose if you are using AI, please - finding it out during the game is just awkward.

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(And this is leaning into a rant territory, but AI art is not that good. Abstract one is, yes, but most landscapes or portraits fall apart the moment someone looks at them closely. I've seen AI art here in Games Tavern - and I can't take a piece intended to be atmospheric seriously when I see mutant animal amalgamations or floating architecture which blends into the sky. Also AI art always feels so samey, it's hard to get excited about for me. If you draw a stick figure for your recruitment post I'd be more into it than whatever generated nonsense AI will offer. XD)

I consider it to be a practical tool that helps me improve the player experience of my game.

I have used it,
- to produce character portraits based upon descriptions where none was provided,
- to correct and improve the narrative of my GM posts,
- and to produce visual impressions of described scenes,
- I also use Dungeon Alchemist to create and screen capture tailored maps and images,

My one regret so far is that I have yet to find a simple method of creating bespoke artwork depicting the characters from my game in actual situations they experienced during the gameplay. That would have been the icing on the cake as far as I was concerned, as it would have allowed me to illustrate events from the game. But despite getting close, I have yet to find an AI program that can take an image and recreate it in a different situation. e.g. Depict Moli Brandysnap being blown up in a sewer explosion.

I had to illustrate a fight scene for my players recently, so that they understood where everyone is at, and, well, this is what me, The Artist, came up with..

There are several free VTT you can use as well as a couple map told integrated with this site, notably On the fly Battle map, that can be used to quickly map things out better than an AI can result generate without allot of skill

I've seen a thread about them recently, but it all seemed a bit.. intimidating. Maybe a should give them a go.

It can be simple and get more complex if you like. The simple format can do a stick drawing like what the AI did but if you already have a map all the GM has to do it drop some PC/NPC tokens onto it by coordinates. The more advanced form has a background image, with overlays, objects, fog of war, colored, sized, or even image tokens.

Personally I use a VTT with some generic token and screen shot it then post the image to the games. While this does require an external tool it is much quicker for me as the VTT makes placement easy for tokens, objects, drawings, map, etc. I use Tableplop or Roll20 for VTT

I am against the use of AI in creative contexts. It doesn't think; it rehashes. There is a place for AI in other areas, though.

I have used AI once to create a post as a joke - but the post was supposed to be dialogue from an AI.

There is a place that I do use AI, however. I use it to do research, as in, 'give me a list of all the variants of orcs in TTRPGs'. There's nowhere online that I've found that has that type of information, and AI is a good data compiler.

If it becomes too difficult to explain the combat situation in writing, I will sometimes revert to uploading the battle map into World Anvil or Paint 3d and then superimpose the player's character tokens onto it to show where everyone is standing. Can't say it happens that often

This was a particularly complicated and crowded combat encounter in the Chaos Shrine under Grunewald Lodge during our last game. The shrine had already been modelled in 3D using Dungeon Alchemist, so it was just a question of taking a top-down screenshot of the layout and then adding the character tokens in the appropriate places.

Never used it. But if I did, I’d check it over to make sure it’s a readable and engaging post, and if necessary I’d make my own edits first. By time I do all that though, I guess I could do it all myself anyway. It’s just a tool, gotta know how to use it.

I would say, if you simply must use AI, at least do this. I agree with FlyingSucculent in that it is jarring and removes you from the immersion to read a post that has obviously been generated using AI (and it's really pretty easy to tell, if unedited).

This is beautiful. I especially like phone that rings and big man escape plan. XD

I think maps like this can make games better than a generated map would. Not to say there isn't a place for detailed, every-cell-defined maps, but in games with theatre of the mind approach I love seeing hand-drawn plans like this. :D

I've played with AI a fair bit. At first it was just art generation when I couldn't find similar work on the Internet. That's how they get ya, get you in their hooks and reel you in.

I've used it extensively for research, asking questions that could only be answered by someone who has read extensively the text of a RPG system and splat books. As mentioned above, sometimes AI hallucinates, but you can ask for sources.

Later I tried having it write content, but I dislike the results - when you write something yourself you know it better than reading or skimming something you got elsewhere. As a GM you have to know what you've given the players. Tried it, abandoned it as a bad idea.

Where I find the most utility is in cohesive idea generation. There are no random tables that can come up with the unexpected yet internally consistent results that a LLM can deliver.

Here's a recent example, my prompt then the beginning of ChatGPTs response.

The results that came back are great but they're just a start. The fun is in fleshing them out, and as soon as any complexity enters, you need to be writing this yourself. As I claimed above, if I didn't write it, I don't really know it.

Now, if you keep asking ChatGPT it will drill down and try to generate content for you as well, but what I like are the bullet points it comes up with. That gives me the barest skeleton from which to write and evolve the project.

The ethics and the stolen IP used to train many (but not all) of the models makes me ill, but these technologies are here to stay and will be widespread across most applications you use on a daily basis very soon. Better regulations and controls are desperately needed, but in the meantime I've gotten good image results out of ChatGPT / Dalle, and frankly amazing results out of Midjourney. Both can now keep characters more or less consistent from scene to scene. I vastly prefer work from real artists, but I cannot draw and *love* having the ideas and characters in my head actualized. I've commissioned several hundred pieces of character art over the years and will continue to do so, but will use the AI tools when I don't have the time or money to commission someone, or I can't find a suitable piece on Pinterest or what-have-you.

The LLMs can be a great muse or sage -- the writing partners / sparring partners some mention above. I've seen great results both at work and with RPGs on this front, but I'll also admit I don't particularly care for the writing style if often uses. And when I spot that style in a player or GM's posts, I do fine it jarring and more than a little off-putting.

Complex subject. Going to get more so.

My reasoning is similar. I'm still not happy to trust my life to a driverless car, or sit in an aircraft without a pilot, but there are times when lacking the skill in drawing I still need a character portrait that matches the NPC description in the adventure I'm running.

Hanna the mutant from the adventure 'Mutant Murderers' pg 85 WFRP 2e Spires of Altdorf.
'Her neck is two feet long and highly flexible.'

When it comes to research, I am a lot more cautious about using AI. I happen to be quite interested in history and so I'm used to doing my own research, but some of the historical posts I read on Facebook Groups and Historical Forums are woefully inaccurate and some are almost laughable, where the author has allowed AI to fact scrape information from random sources to formulate answer that is legibly plausible but factual rubbish. Like the US Marine Corps fighting on the battlefield of Waterloo.

That being said I'm dubious about trusting AI to accurately fact-scrape the lore for my WFRP game. I'd rather do it myself so I know the information is reliable. AI can create anything and make it look plausible, but it doesn't mean it's right.

That's a really interesting question, not only insightful but also relevant to Gamers` Plane.

AI has a particular style — using unusual characters such as em dashes and single character ellipsis (…) not found on keyboards; "not only… but also…" constructions; and groups of three (for what I tell you three times is true?).

Would you like me to suggest how you can use LLMs in your PbP games?

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Yeah - we're seeing more of it. I think AI can be a useful tool to spark creativity - a sounding board for brainstorming ideas, or to add some polish to a lacklustre description in an emergency. But it also has a flavourless flavour that means I often find my eyes skipping over it rather than reading it.

But, as Griff says, it depends on why the players are at the table. If they're there to roll dice and kill baddies, and writing narrative is a cost they have to pay then, sure, get chatgpt to write the bit you find a chore. Provided there are some players at the table with the quirky, interesting posts to provide my narrative fix, then I'm happy.

I do worry a little that games will enter the "dead internet theory" zone, where there are games with only AIs at the table, using humans to post for them in some weird matrix-like dystopia.

I see AI in PbP much like I’d see a spellchecker or a thesaurus - just that: tools. Sometimes I use them, especially for the "boring work" like formatting, brainstorming scenes, or helping me untangle a messy paragraph. Like Griff and Adam said, it really depends on why you’re at the table and what you want out of the experience.

I find the ethics and the use of potentially stolen creative work in the training of many models troubling, but, in general, chatgpt and similar tools are more like limited, slightly naive assistants that can be useful but need guidance.

I also fully agree with the sentiment that unedited AI content has this weird, "flavourless flavour" that can be jarring. If people at the table are sensitive to that (and many are), I think it’s totally fair to bring it up in recruitment threads or have an OOC conversation about what’s acceptable or not at all.

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What I’d like to add - and I haven’t seen mentioned yet - is that for some of us, especially on a free-to-play site, these games are also a place to learn. Whether it's improving writing, getting better at GMing, or even learning how to use new tools like AI more thoughtfully.

If AI is going to be part of the landscape moving forward, it makes sense that people might want to practice using it here, with care and transparency, so they can figure out how to use it well.

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When using AI for writing, you usually give it some context and then a prompt based on what you need help with. The context might be the previous scene, a character summary, or relevant details (like who’s present, what’s going on, the mood of the moment, etc.). Then you ask the AI for something specific - like rewriting a rough draft, suggesting ideas, or fleshing out a part you’re not in the mood to write.

Here’s a rough example of the process:

Context:
Prompt:
AI Output:
Final Post (after some editing):

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The trick is: the more clear and focused your context, prompt and examples, the better the result - but you almost always want to edit the output to fit your style and the tone of the game. Think of it like a creative springboard or a writing buddy who throws you rough drafts you can shape into something better.

I’ve also noticed that after using AI for a while, I’ve started writing more like it - with dashes - and it, in turn, has started sounding more like me, as long as I give it better prompts. I’m not a native English speaker, so in some situations, it helps me get past those moments where I know what I want to say, but not quite how to write it in the right tone.

The final question is... did I write this post alone, or did an AI help me with it? 😉

I use dashes and ellipses in my writing a lot.

I type out posts in a stream-of-thought fashion, and I utilize dashes and ellipses to denote pauses and emphasis and things.

Furthermore, I often type out pbp posts over the course of hours in a word processor, before copy pasting them into the thread so that I don't lose the post to a Wi-Fi or data signal reset. Which that word processor automatically converts dashes to (and this was a new-to-me term until this post) "em dashes" if the dash is followed by a space and a alpha-character. It also converts three periods strung into an ellipse into a single character ellipses if followed by a space.

I've never once copy pasted AI generated text into a post, but I wonder if ppl think I do?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, M^2 (Machine Man?). You aren't fooling anyone.

👀
😆
😅
😬

Honestly I like AI for making character art, but I don't use it to write my posts... But it is nice for bouncing around ideas

You should try an AI assisted word processor like Lex

AI can also be good for helping to write journal entries, research notes, etc. Stuff that you wouldn't be easily able to do.

AI is here to stay, in all aspects of our life, so better adapt and use the good things from it.

For writing i use occasionally to review my text as english is my third language, its not any different than using grammarly before in my opinion. However I write the entire post first, and its from my own creativity.

At work i use it for analytic financial models, its a revolution in the field. I can do the work of ten persons since i adopted.

Oh wow, I never thought about this! This is totally the writing style we were taught in school for our non-english language. One of my initial struggles with English writing is that things like describing something three times with similar, equivalent and identical adjectives for no other reason than to show off your mastery of vocabulary - or at least skillful use of dictionaries - doesn't really work no does it? The other one is adverbs... we use them... a lot ...

I thought "AI" was trained mostly from English, but maybe it picked up a lot of other language structures on the way...

Yea, I have a lot "formal" writing and technical writing and "persuasive" writing education and training and jobs in my background, and I use a lot of these same devices (and more).

No surprise that LLM's were trained with formal and technical writing techniques.

I've actually picked up emdashes from AI! I like them better than an overuse of commas. I'm also someone who loves using semicolons, so it's not that weird.

Like others have said, I enjoy using AI as a tool and not as a finished product. NotebookLM helps me find notes and connect pieces in massive setting books, and ChatGPT help me make lists and absolutely helps me with GP coding for fancy posts; I was able to use it to make a complex WFRP skill list for sheets.

I've started shying away from image generators. Not for an ethical reason (after all, in my eyes it isn't that different from stealing images from the Internet, and just as harmless in our uses here), but because I've grown weary of its flaws. It's fun to tinker around with and help folks realize their characters, but I just haven't been happy with the end results.

That said, I'd rather my players use AI images than anything from HeroForge. If you want a soulless portrait, that's where they have mastered the art.

Yep, some of us, well—we’ve been using the em dash for years! Semicolons and proper ellipses, too…

(Great enablers for some top-shelf run-on sentences, too!)

Agree about HeroForge portraits. No thanks.

So you get ten times the pay, right?

More like ten times the work, probably.

AI is a tool.

Use it to compose and it will sound like a tool.

Use it to enhance composition and it will amaze.

Primarily the generative AI of the 1970's and today produce about the same quality content. Modern AI does it faster.

It was never meant to replace the human element, only t enhance it.

I wish! :) Fortunately part of our compensation is based on how well our region is doing, so it improved the pay.

Doing same amount of working hours.

Why would it be ten time the amount of work, AI is making the work easier, not harder if i understand properly?

I will admit I go back and forth from being too reliant on AI to not using it at all. Ideally I usually write up 4-5 sentences of a prompt then turn that into a post. I would then reread and proof it.

On good days, I manually edit but will admit to have also tried just prompt adjustments on less than ideal circumstances.

I have also used it for speech mannerisms if I am going for a certain dialect or something I am unfamiliar with.

I usually also use NotebookLM for review My irl games I also record audio and upload to give them a "podcast" of the play session with the audio recap generation. I have done that in pbp as well, literally copying an entire thread text and pasting.

Edit: this is as a GM. As a player I try and not use it at all other than for maybe a character introduction post.

The boss sees you doing more work in the same amount of time. Boss Brain activates - must mean that they can do even more work! Here's an additional load for you, enjoy! The pay? Same, of course!

I see hahaha... such is life! :) Thats why most people in Japan work at 50% capacity, they afraid to get more work.

That's not just Japan. I had to learn to work "slow" at my last place. Was pretty jarring.

Repeating things three times is also magickal incantation. Politicians use it all the time (as did dark magician, Jimmy Saville)

Thought I would share my experience with this tool as well. I have a game that is hybrid in-person and PbP. I have used NoteBookLM to weave a "recap" for my party for both of them using the Audio Overview feature:

Here

This Audio Overview functionally spans (functionally) 2 sessions, one in person that was recorded and a thread of PbP. The LLM then took both sources and melded them into a single recap overview. This has proven really great for my players especially if they get lost in the narrative or just want to hear everything that has happened so far or (since we only do in-person every couple months) I need a recap of everything. It also has great analysis tools and finding tools for details you might have forgotten.

Unfortunately I didn't record the in-person session before the start of this one but I do plan on doing that forward. As for the Gamersplane threads, I literally just copy and paste the page with all of the pages expanded and it seems to work great

I used to use em dashes a lot, but then stopped once everyone started thinking it must be GPT since it uses em dashes. Sigh...

Yeah, I'm not letting AI push me off of proper writing. Lol

That’s what I’m doing for my Masks Cthulhu campaign. For a massive campaign already stretching into years, it’s incredibly helpful to track information

That’s what I’m doing for my Masks Cthulhu campaign. For a massive campaign already stretching into years, it’s incredibly helpful to track information

I use AI. Both as a player and as a GM. For image generation as well as text. I have basic prompts set up, I tell it what I want to happen, it fleshes those ideas out. I edit the result to my liking, make sure it's conveying the ideas I'm trying to convey, hit send.

I find it takes a lot of the stress off of me. I've always been self-conscious about my writing abilities. Love TTRPGs, but creativity has never been my strong suit. I find it easier to tweak rather than start from a blank canvas.

This is my first game I've implemented AI in, but I made sure everyone was aware beforehand. As this thread shows, feelings are pretty wide ranging for various reasons. For that reason I am very open about it. Wouldn't want to cross any ethical lines.

Can 100% get behind the complaining about the em dashes though. I edit most of those out.

I wasn't complaining about em dashes - I like them! They're like the cool kids of punctuation who hang out with commas, semicolons, and colons - always in style. It's just that people on a phone or keyboard tend to use hyphens rather than the wider typographical em dashes (unsurprisingly, as wide as a letter 'm'). It's just that AI uses "—" not "-", so it's a bit like AI fingerprints, that's all.

I heavily use AI for graphics, especially NPC portraits and maps.

On a phone, en- and em-dashes are easy. (So why didn’t I call them en– and em—dashes?)

Weird that AI would use an em-dash instead of a hyphen. An en-dash would make sense. APA 7th edition standards require an en-dash for page ranges and other numerical ranges (which sucks, since I can’t type an en-dash on my work laptop, so I have to copy-paste an en-dash).

I play TTRPGs to experience co-creating adventure experiences with other humans, not with an AI. I will not willingly interact with a game where AI has been a part of it in any way.

Le gasp!

Not even Spell Check?!

What's wrong with the regular spell checker in browser/office writer?

Nothing at all. They frequently use AI, and have since like the 90s

I have a browser extension that replaces -- with – and --- with — so I occasionally get flagged as AI in stuff I wrote myself. Fortunately, I'm not still in school or in a field that has to submit academic papers. I usually turn it off for GP just in case.

Wanted to write "can you really call those spell checking algorithms AI?" but looking at the wiki article for AI, i guess it does fit. Though i still associate the word with sentience first and foremost, rather than just machines doing "smart" tasks.

I get it. I work with a lot of deep/machine learning, so I'm always surprised at finding out some tasks utilize it. It's not quite the same as the recently sensationalized "Generative AI", but it's AI all the same.

If you listen to music or have seen a movie in the last 25 years, congrats - you just consumed media produced in part by generative AI. Every song you love, every movie you like, every bit of media you consume made since 1990. All of it has used AI.

Its not like it suddenly happened. Its been here longer than I have.

You must use it. Get used to it. Become comfortable with it. You would be a fool not to. Early adopters at least have some say in how it develops.

This is the future.

But do these generative robots help create art or just products? I think that's the unpleasant feeling folks are feeling. The "uncanny valley" of art of sorts. Like when people chose vinyl and hardcovers instead of digital alternatives. Though i suppose that's more medium than the contents.

They do create anything. They hallucinate and regurgitate information based on prompting. The more restrictive and specific the prompt, the more clarity and cohesion the machine will produce.

Yes, produce.

It is the people who allow the machine to be a composer that find the uncanny valley material. Because ultimately the machine does not understand beauty or music.

I use some generative AI to make music. But I compose it, and I perform it. The AI is there to crunch the near infinite number of permutations to rearrange it. Then when preproduction is complete, I record it again, sing the part and master the sound. The AI is an amenuensis.

Wrath of the Ancient

Laguz

One of these songs was produced with a band the old fashioned way. Handfuls of psychedelic mushrooms and months of trial and error. The other is just me a flute and an AI.

Can you hear the difference?

The amount of equivocating on the meaning of the phrase "AI" in this thread is staggering. 'AI' can mean like a hundred different things, some of which are unproblematic, others of which SUCK. For example, expert systems using formal logic to parse data have been around since the 1970s at least; these are largely unproblematic. AI systems that supplant human critical thinking and creativity at broad, societal levels, on the other hand, are incredibly harmful. The latter kind of AI has NOT been around since 1990; it is relatively recent. And no one who objects to AI is referring to the former.

So y'all will have a lot more success in your arguments if you define your terms, stop equivocating, and thereby identify the actual points of disagreement among you, if there are any.

This message has been brought to you by your local philosophy professor who teaches critical thinking for a living.

Um, actually, The Google tells me that Generative AI has been around since the 60s.

Boing FWIP!

"Generative AI" has the same problems as "AI" And, while we're at it, "AGI." Poorly defined terms with different senses for different folks and contexts.

Oh and by the way, if you want to see what the early forms of "generative AI" were, go try ELIZA, the first chatbot. It is... NOT really AI in any significant way. It's no more AI than an Infocom game is.

Go try ELIZA for yourself and see how 'good' an AI therapist it is.

And while you're at it, go play ZORK I.

Mmmmm, Zork.

This is astute and I am here for it.

I will clarify.

All visual and audible media in the mainstream uses AI to produce content. It has since the early 90's. The aversion to AI generated content that makes the user "feel nothing" is certainly possible. However, it is also extremely unlikely. As music producers and movie producers have a market based on manipulating emotions.

Algorithmic production of music has existed since Mozart's Musikalisches Würfelspiel.

But in the modern Mainstream Boston's Tom Scholz created much of the hardware and underlying theory which makes sound mastering possible.

While he didn't use machine intelligence to do this, he did use maths. The machines he made use these maths to make the job faster than humans can. In short: The future is now. The genie cannot be put back in the bottle. Adaptation is evolution. The best way to get ahead of malignant use of maths, is to learn more maths.

Jomsviking, I plugged in this conversation into Gemini 2.5 Pro and asked it to summarize the logical and rhetorical fallacies you've made so far in this argument. I have included it below, and hope it is useful to you:

Awesome!
It agrees with my assertion.
Adapt or die is the most critical thought. Also proven by the last ~50,000 years of human evolution.
Thats because its currently being reality cannot be debated. It is already here. The downsides of falling behind the use of a tool are far more severe than that tool being abused.
It lost the plot. I claimed my way is the superior use of the tool. It also asserts that AI can replace human creativity, which is preposterous. AI will never be able to do that since it requires human interface to produce anything.

It is not a general intelligence, which is an unrelated topic.

I will now need you to provide citation that it is harmful. You may use an AI(and probably will) to answer this. In the process you will learn and I will learn and if harm is done it will still be a net gain on account of all of us learning.

This is the "shifting the goalposts" fallacy. If you’d like me to provide you a complete accounting of your fallacies, I have hourly rates.

PS You’re the kind of guy who’d unironically choose Clippy as your Warlock patron, ain’t ya?

99% sure that is just a Great Old One right?

No. Can't shift goal posts when their corepoint of contention is being called into question. It is the entirety of their argument. If it indefensible they are just wrong. They need to prove their statement.

If you claim it is harmful. The onus is on you to prove that. Citations matter.

Also: I use linux and think of many daemons more powerful than Clippy.

Slightly ironically, Clippy is being lauded as the anti-generative-AI, as the 'helpful software that did not steal your data or try to sell you ...'. There is a movement to 'change you avatar to Clippy to show those companies you don't support these practices'...

This has got to be the same cohort of sailors who wore paperclips when it came time to reup their contracts for nearly identical reasons

Could be, it did have a 'corporate resistance' vibe to it when they were preaching at me. :)

On a slightly different tack, it is delightful that I of all people have become the pro in the AI debate.

I think the debate is an interesting one, since you really have 4 camps.

Pro and "it will replace us"
Pro and "it is just a tool to use"
Con and "it will never be as good as humans"
Con and "it will replace us"

It is like the DnD Alignment system trying to figure out where everyone is on it

The alignment system is a whole other argument to be had. ;)

Um wait a moment do you mean 'pro' as in 'in favor of', 'a fan of'? or do you mean 'pro', as in 'professional'?

If the former, why would you be surprised? I generally find that folks who uncritically laud AI and claim it has been with us since the 90s or earlier generally have a facile understanding of such issues.

If the latter, um, what are your credentials?

(THIS IS SARCAM!!)

I have Credentials!!! AI Made them for me!

Probably a bit doomer of me, but I believe it will be much like the rise of social media and the smart phone. That is, it's an inevitable technological advancement that we are not prepared to handle the ramifications of its completely unregulated integration into modern society. We're still struggling to teach current generations to use social media in moderation while it's used to spread mass misinformation and manipulate people. The arrival of AI will contribute to the erosion of critical thinking skills and the dissemination of misinformation. None of this is to say these technologies are without their benefits, but rather that the good will very much be taken with a lot of bad. It's a tool, and it's one that will be handled with the grace and wisdom of a toddler.

To answer the topic question, my opinion of its usage in PbP very much depends on how its used. As a brainstorming tool and perhaps as a way to churn out images to help folks' imagination, I think it's fine. Of course, this isn't to comment on the ethical concerns that come with the current state of development of the technology. For those who use it as a replacement for their own expression and writing, I'm not very much a fan. If it is being used to the same degree that I'm playing a game with a robot, then I don't see the point in going out of my way to play with real people. People are the entire reason I'm playing, after all.

I don't use AI for PbP personally, even for brainstorming. There's still a bit of a mental block I have that makes me feel creatively bankrupt for even taking inspiration from something put out by an AI. It just feels different from taking inspiration from other sources, and I don't like the feeling. So, I abstain.

I view AI as a tool but it can, and likely will, have a major impact. Like industrialization, which caused a major shift in professions, AI will speed some things up and likely relegate some jobs to the master artisan role. People still use hand tools to work wood, leather, etc but not as much and it is harder to do so as a career. I doubt AI will eliminate writers and other artists. But it will likely reduce the number of such jobs

Pro as in for.

For the past decade I have been outspoken, especially to software engineers that it will replace them. I was never really against that per se. Just warning them that because they didn't fully understand intelligence they couldn't program all kinds of it. Only the intelligece they understood. This is why AI is obviating coders, where cooks, sanitation workers, and the like are not seeing a big change.

To be clear, I am not big into trying to control things. That is not a survival trait. Machine learning is big on controlling everything which is why it will replace whatever we program it to think like.

I am in the integrate and assimilate hyperminority. I think it will make us better as we make it better. To a point. Then we will adapt and overcome it as we have always done.

So let me get this straight. You are NOT a professional in the computer science or AI industries? But you are convinced you know more and better than the people who are?

Are you one of those folks who thinks you know better than virologists about vaccines? And you know all about how jet fuel can’t melt steel I beams? Because that’s what you sound like to me. A vivid Dunning-Kruger Effect case study.

But...but...my gut is far more reliable than your years of experience and learning!

This is starting to get into personal attacks. Perhaps we take a step back and chill? And remember...

Ah the good ole appeal to authority. A logical fallacy professor. Your good word is simply not good enough. You need to provide facts not opinions. Heres a fact, the actions of the supposed experts have killed that industry sector. 5% of software engineers have already been replaced by AI globally. This number will only increase, until ~2040 where it will obviate the need for 50% of the industry.

In the industry the adoption and integration of AI has increased efficiency. Which results in better machine learning. Which in turn will replace the human component faster.

To whit, I do not know better. I know different. The idea of knowing better is prejudiced weakness. I do not possess the audacity to define intelligence, let alone stratify them.

The fact that the software engineers have so completely defined this kind of intelligence so effectively is rather proof patent that it was the easiest for us to do as a species. Is that what you mean by better? The most rudimentary and easiest to define is better at thinking in a certain way. But that doesn't make it better at other intelligences.

You specifically have made many assumptions of my character. Which seems to indicate a large degree of prejudice and bias. And some might define as an ad hominem. You are attacking my character without actually providing evidence of your claims, expertise, or on the harm of the subject in question.

I worked on training Microsoft's ASD for more than a decade post serving in the USMC where we trained, and largely defeated, drones targetting solutions. I learned enough about the machine to effectively destroy it from within or without. I am a mid rate computer programmer, largely due to lack of interest. A machine simply is, it is not exciting to me.

I learned that your intelligence is different, neither superior or inferior. And I also learned that no matter how sophisticated the program or sensitive the instrument. A machine designed to seek and destroy humans. A machine that cost hundreds of millions. Ran by a super computer that costs billions.

Programmed by thousands of "experts" putting in astronomical man hours worth of thinking and coding. Was completely defeated by a squad of crayon munchers who had only the clothes on their back and a single powerpoint presentation given the night before by a captain and lieutenant who know very little about software engineering.

The method of defeating this incredibly sophisticated machine that was designed to seek and kill human beings with unparalleled accuracy and efficiency:

Sticks and leaves
Mud and grass
Barrel rolling
Somersaulting
And a cardboard box

With their training a combined value of $8,000,000, and about 80man hours(64 of which were sleeping on it).

I guess it goes to show you, no matter how much the experts idiot proof something, humans will simply come up with a better idiot. It also goes to show, in terms of intelligence overthinking always loses. There is an entire chapter in The Art of War about this.

As far as this applies to AI in PbP. You will find a better experience if you shackle the AI. Colluding with it will almost always result in a better result, provided you don't ask it to do things related to creativity and emotion. It is your choice ultimately.

Reminder to keep these discussions civil. We all have different opinions about technology and there is no need for personal insults or condescension.

Knock it off, or this thread will be locked and posts deleted.

People tend to forget what the things we call 'ai' actually do, and with it what it should actually be used for.
They're data processing models, large amounts of data turned into maths which is then used to recreate things in ways that are new.
They can't create, or think, or consider, just predict the next token or what pixel goes where based on precedent.
The generative models we call ai are still bound to be linear processes. Mathematic instructions are followed sequentially because that is all our computer hardware can truly do.
Meanwhile a human is still non-linear. Keeping in mind several considerations at once and recalling things all over.
There are complexities that our current computer hardware, by the fundamental way it works, cannot replicate in an efficient manner. That sort of computing needs either different hardware, or incredible amounts of processing.
And that still means we need different technology for how humans combine ideas to make new things with logic instead of the ai trend towards recreating the consensus to keep logic without needing understanding.
The 'crayon munchers' can process the battlefield in ways an ai just can't.
And so will programmers and engineers keep processing code, especially in large projects with many interconnected parts, in ways ai is unable to. The more things are needed to be considered at the same time and though of together in logical ways, the less ai can keep up.


on topic:
for play by post. don't use it to write, at that point you're not really playing the game just instructing the ai to.
but putting an image to a character with image generation, where you get to decide how the image looks, sure that works, you're not passing it off as an artistic work, so it is just image data used for a game.

or use it to process data, find the answer to some very specific questions about practical matters and get borderline accurate information that is good enough for roleplaying.
get some brainstorming ideas before considering what your character would actually do in the specific situation, and consider the final actions and write that yourself.

Some AI is useful. For example, my wife, who is 90% blind, has a pair of Meta glasses that utilize AI to describe what is in front of her, allowing her to "see" in a fashion. Likewise, I use Grammarly to check my spelling, grammar, and punctuation when writing posts. This is a good thing™. On the flip side, I have numerous (as in more than a few) friends who are artists, who are vehemently against AI art, as the algorithms are unethically "trained".

Where is the alignment of "Con, but would be pro if ethics were better"? :D

It is honestly quite sad. If an art hosting site went "hey folks, we're training a model, if you want to help click a checkmark on the images you want to add to the training data", then I would be all over it. But instead most went "hey, we're training a model and you're all opted in and we already saved all your data so it doesn't matter if you opt out" or just steal it all without any announcement, and now my trust in publishing anything on the internet is at all times low and I want nothing to do with generative AI. (And all that started right after NFTs, what a rotten treat.)

Yes, realistically an opt-in training set would be ineffective due to a small amount of data in comparison; but at least it would be morally sound (or more morally sound than it would be otherwise). But after how it all started, plenty of creative people have been turned off the technology entirely, reducing the potential data even further. A bad introduction of technology led to alienating many people and having those not in the tech field be easily tricked by AI-generated scams. To me it is just a good idea which was handled in the worst possible way and is now tainted by it for years to come.

Not to mention that some of the ways people use it are just ghoulish. When did it become acceptable to generate singing voice of an actor who did not consent to their voice being recreated, over paying for a voice bank of an actor who actually did and even benefits from it? Behind every generated thing a model spits out is thousands pieces of art, music, speech, writing which were fed to it without the creator's consent (and it being publicly on the internet is not consent). It's just disheartening. Creators of the models commit copyright infringement at a mass scale and have the gall to then say "too bad you're being replaced, you should get a real job'" to the people they steal from.

This debate is more nuanced than just "side X is afraid of new technology" and "side Y is only using it as a tool". These discussions get so hot, I think, because for a lot of anti-AI people the problem with the technology is close to the heart; it feels more like a personal affront when someone tells "you're just silly to fear the progress" because it really isn't why I don't like generative AI as it currently is.

PS: why couldn't the data sets just use actual public domain stuff, seriously. Still shifty and yes, less data, but at least they wouldn't have alienated half of creative fields with it. Guess that's just what rushing to get new stuff on the market leads to.

---

To not be completely off-topic, sometimes I wonder how plausible it would be to train a model on GP games alone, with opt-in system. Would it be enough data to get a mathematical model capable of taking decisions as if it were a player? What about writing? That would be a fun experiment. And actually ethical because you can ask every specific player and GM about it. XD

...although they do use different hardware.

AI models represent data as vectors. A vector is an object with a bunch of numbers. We can think of a DND character's abilities as a vector of ability scores, HP, skills (e.g. [16,12,8,14,11,10,24,0,0,1,2,0,1,...]).

When you stick a bunch of numbers together, you get a matrix. AI models do this to process their data as matrices, as it's then possible to perform mathematical operations on a whole lump of data. It allows processing of information as a gestalt. Going back to our example, we could imagine a matrix which adjusts HP based on CON, and then apply it to a party (where a party is a bunch of vectors jammed together into a matrix).

I don't know if you remember how to perform matrix algebra from school, but if you do, then you might remember that finding numbers in the result matrix can be done in any order (although we tend to work left-right, top-bottom out of cultural habit). This allows matrix operations to be parallelised.

This is where GPUs come into play. GPUs are built to allow massive parallel processing and are optimised for this sort of processing. It's also why Nvidia (a GPU manufacturer) has become a very valuable company on the back of the AI boom - they provide hardware to help make general matrix multiplication parallel and non-linear.

Now, of course, within those myriad parallel streams, there are still sequential operations, but massive parallel processing of matrices is still fundamental to current AI models.

I didn't mean this to come across as an "ackchyually...", but more of an answer to anyone who ever asked their maths teacher, "when am I ever going to need to calculate an eigenvector?"

Exactly, FS. If the art generators were ethically trained, I would be among the first to embrace AI art. For someone who can't draw a non-Euclidean line with a French curve (i.e., me), AI art would be a godsend. I still wouldn't use it in professional products (I'd rather pay to hire a real artist), but for things like PbP games, where I need a lot of pictures, it would be great!

I think we've gotten quite off topic of if/how we use Al in our PbP games.

I ran a game about a year/year and a half ago that was 100% AI generated, that was the premise and pitch to players.

The players created characters, using AI, including class/subclass creation. I created the entire campaign ONLY using AI.

We wrote the initial campaign prompt together then I put it into the system to spit out the story usually after every post, I copied and pasted the posts from GP to the model and asked it to describe or decide what happens next. Sometimes it took a few "clean up" prompts or manual editing but overall it worked out fairly well. And this was ChatGPT 3.0. I bet 5.0 would do even better.

This was VERY minimalistic AI playing, I allowed the AI model to guide the play a lot. But I felt like it was fun and it came up with some interesting scenarios using this method though definitely not perfect. I could very easily see how this could translate with some training to a player being 100% AI controlled, but that from my experimentation isn't as fun and when I have "attempted" it in the past, it felt hollow and the model just asked more questions/messed up pov of the post/failed to commit to anything.

I prefer writing 4-5 paragraphs then using the AI model to help my writing have a distinct style or character to it. I would use it to get accents in writing form consistent, adding flowery language but not making the decisions themselves. I have found this has actually helped my own writing actually, where because I don't need the AI model as much as I once did for this type of stuff.

I have no doubt that it is possible to run a decent game with an AI GM, or AI players, or both, even without human assistance. AI Dungeon existed before ChatGPT, after all; it's a tried concept even if it'll always have flaws. :D A few years ago I probably would've even been enthusiastic to play in something like that! Alas, now it just feels wrong.

That said, that's not really what I meant. I was thinking more about a model fully trained on GP games from the ground up, not an already trained model being prompted in specific ways to get desired results. It probably won't work with writing, but it would be an interesting thing to see how a model like that will approach decisions - how GP's collective consciousness operates. XD

I recently tried having ChatGPT write an adventure for my campaign. I ended up using the base idea, but nothing else. It just felt artificial when I read through what the computer wanted to use. I will say this: While it felt, as I said, artificial, the computer did an excellent job of structuring the adventure and even provided stats for the central villain.

The only Al used in my PbP:

That's weird...

Oh, Goddess me. This is famous Al thread now, isn't it?

On a "AI in PbP" related note - do you feel like ST/GM/DM's or players have to divulge their use (and amount) of AI usage or is it optional?

AI to generate statblocks Yes
AI to generate encounters No
AI to generate plot hooks Yes
AI to generate campaigns No

Remember all the AI is doing is crunching numbers faster.

I would say that given the decisive nature of AI, it's courtesy and good practice to divulge that information. I wouldn't say it's required, but you also don't get to complain when your players leave because of its use.

Which reminds me, I need to add a note that I've used ChatGPT to do the grunt-work of converting tables to GP use.

I feel like I'd be more iffy about the plot hooks, rather than campaign building, since plot is the backbone of the game, the main thing to me, while robot created campaign sounds more like this:

I don’t want to play in anyone’s games who is generating actual ideas with AI. Like, come on — why don’t you just pay someone else to play your characters for you too? The whole point of the exercise is the creative fun. And do NOT come at me with that "ai prompt writing is creative" nonsense. Next thing, you’ll be telling me you are a digital artist because you plug phrases in an image generator. What a joke.

Gwen, what about for people who struggle with pen-to-paper creation? I, personally, struggle with that initial spark of creativity; I make up for it with random tables or just using existing modules. So what's the problem with starting with prompts from an AI, generated using specific queries and filters for the game in question, and expanding from there? In the end, the only part wasn't my own creation was a Spark Table, which wouldn't have been my own creation anyways?

Using AI to produce a list of ideas is not a deal breaker for me; it's not much different than just googling and finding a blog post, or having a random table to roll on. I use random roll tables more as sources of inspiration than to actually roll on when DMing. And if folks want to use AI in that way, I won't object.

What I don't want is a GM who lets the AI make the creative decisions for them, who copy/pastes the ChatGPT output into posts, and so on. I know it's useful; believe me, I know. But I have to take a principled stand on this.

Look, and this is not aimed at you CowleyC, but mostly those AI apologists above. I have taught critical thinking/reading/writing for 25 years. And I am telling you, students became measurably worse at these skills after the advent of social media, and have become vastly, frighteningly worse at them after ChatGPT and the like replaced their own ability to think critically. They can't read long form text AT ALL any more; they need ChatGPT to give them the TL;DR. They can't string ideas together into an independent train of thought; they need ChatGPT to formulate their broken speech into paragraphs. This is an existential threat to democracy, which fundamentally requires people to be able to evaluate candidates and policies and make decisions about them.

When we let AI make our decisions creatively, politically, and so on, when we let it think for us, we cede our minds, and our societies, to the tech bros who write the algorithms that govern these AIs. We are all willfully giving up our democracy in favor of a technocratic oligarchy, and all for the convenience of not having to do the hard work of thinking and creating for ourselves.

I confess, I use AI to generate character images, and sometimes to generate lists of names or phrases. And I am also well aware of how my own ability to read long form texts, think critically, etc has degraded over the past ten years. And yet I use these tools anyway. So if someone who is fully aware of the dangers of these things still uses them, we are doomed.

So no, I will not abide foolish arguments that the unchecked, unregulated, uncritical acceptance of AI in a society is a good thing. And, for those wider political reasons, I'd rather not overly rely on it for my gaming.

I use a lot of randomized lists, but all of them are stocked either with my ideas or those "borrowed" from other people (i.e., found on the web). They are never populated by AI.

Late to the discussion, and my thoughts are disorganized at best, but here goes:

I am viscerally repulsed by most AI-generated content...if I can tell it's AI-generated. And that's the scary part; I can't always tell. I do see the usefulness of it though. Out of curiosity, I have dabbled in it on my own.

I won't judge anyone who uses it as an aid, but I'll no doubt find AI-generated prose uninteresting even if I thought a human wrote it.

The players in my home game aren't writers, and I think (despite my best efforts to prevent this) they are intimidated by my writing, amateurish as it is. We got tgeir D&D5e characters all the way to 12th level without proper backstories. They finally had Ai write them up. I'm disappointed, but what can I do other than run with it?

Consider how much wilder your game could get if you fed all those to an LLM and told it to expand the theme based on a series of your human arbitrations. Then had it output them as a series you could base on die rolls.

So crazy it just might work.

The ecological / environmental and ethical sides of AI are what make me not want anything to do with it, as far as I'm capable. I'm aware that when I pick images from the intarwebs to illustrate my games, that some of them might come originally from AI, but there's little I can do about that.

^I agree, and what I’ve noticed is that GMs who use AI for more than just art are up-front about it.

I personally create my own content as a GM, and when feasible, I draw my own characters as a player.

That said, even without the use of AI, I still use content that is not my own creation. I post YouTube links to battle music in my games that the player can opt to listen to. If an NPC happens to look like Dr. Wiley from Megaman, I throw in a gif:I draw my own battle maps, but the emojis that represent the PCs are not my own creation:I even made my own 13-page rulebook. But I still used emojis, free-for-commercial-use fonts, and a system which is a Lasers & Feelings hack.My point…?

We all use tools. I am not an "AI apologist," nor do I rely on AI myself for my own reasons, but I’m fine with others using AI in a PbP that is played on a forum without money exchanging hands.

Yeah this point has been sorely lacking from this thread, at least since I've joined it.

Even if AI is as useful as its "pros" claim, it destroys our environment and puts creatives out of work. Now, if AI were more environmentally friendly and was used to replace the jobs of CEOs, Wall Street bros, etc...

While I understand the point of view that AI will make everyone lazy and it will take away things like their writing skills, I don't really agree with that equating to a bad thing.

I try to see the positive side of it. I think AI will be a great tool for those who want to try something new and just need a bit of help getting there. Even just as something to bounce ideas off of or refine what you already have without needing another person. It could really lower the threshold for people who fear they don't have the necessary skills.

PbP to me is about having fun. Whatever tools other players are using, heck even if they are just AI bots pretending to be people, as long as I'm enjoying myself I don't feel like it diminishes the experience. I'd love to find a good AI that can GM for me and be personalized in a way that fits perfectly with my playstyle. The option to start or continue a story whenever I have 10 minutes of spare time seems awesome to me :). And if others want to join me in such an adventure, even better!

The only thing I would miss in such a case is being able to share that story with others and get their opinions. AI can't replace that aspect for me.

So I suppose I'm more in the "use it as a tool" camp.

PS: I also want more Weird Al in my games! :D

In my personal opinion this is a false equivalence, and your examples are not similar to using an AI image.
When you post music, in the best case scenario you're posting a link to an official upload; and if it's unofficial, it's usually at least credited.
When you use a gif from an animated series, you use it as is, and while you might not credit it directly, it is still easy to look up.
Emojis are a similar case (and some of them I believe are in public domain).
Lasers & Feelings are under CC-BY, so unless you're not actually giving credit, you're still using it in-line with creator's/publisher's wishes.

Generative AI does not credit the artists whose art it used in training, nor does it allow you to easily look them up. It's a tool built on intellectual theft. Yes, it is undeniably a tool and shaming someone for using it is like shaming someone for consuming goods made by an unethical corporation. (You probably shouldn't do it beyond maybe informing them if they are unaware; but you are also allowed to feel iffy about them doing it.)

I just think equating generative AI to things like reposting someone's music misses the reason why many artists are against it. Or I guess why I'm against it, since I can't speak for everyone (and case in point, you don't share my view). :D

I will be the first to admit I am an AI apologist. I am also someone who believes in a healthy debate and I think on both sides of this there is a lot of "strawman" arguments being made, when in my opinion I think we need to start from a "steelman" argument and I think it is my job as someone on the "pro" AI side to try and present the "Against" side in it's strongest form without hyperbolic or strong language which I believe are these points:Bottom line is that there are valid concerns with AI...I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. Some are just choosing to use the tool now, even with those concerns, some are abstaining from the tool due to the concerns and some are actively trying to stop/wanting the tool from being further developed. All three options are valid.

What I don't want people to think is that looking down upon an individual because of these views, look down on society sure but this is a far more nuanced space than other "controversial" topics.

I used to be in the same camp until very recently. Obviously, it's an ongoing discourse so I don't have any hills I'm willing to die on, I'm open to discussion and I don't mean this to come across as a personal attack or anything.

With that out the way, I'd use AI mostly because I've always sucked at drawing or 3d design or what have you, and I can't always be commissioning artists for every little thing I might need, especially since I was barely making ends meet for most of my life. I saw AI as a tool to get NPCs portraits and whatnot. Yeah I had my reservations about it's environmental and ethical aspects and teaching the algorithms to make us all lazy in mind, and yeah it is derivative but at least I wasn't making money out of it, there was no commercial use. That's how I used to see it.

The thing is, the only way to get good at something is to try doing it. If I keep using AI for art, I won't ever get better at art, I'll get better at writing prompts and editing the output. If course, I just need a few portraits for an online game, I'm not looking to become an artist nor would I put in the work required, so why not use AI, right? Well, because it starts with these little convenient things and before you know it, it's a monster out of control (look at a similar example with social media, starting as a way to reconnect with old classmates and keep up with friends, but now... it's become what it's become). To circle back to an example of AI in music mentioned earlier, I believe by Jomsviking, would I put in the work to learn any music if I just needed, say, a custom silly song to play for some friends who'd be the only ones to ever get the inside joke? Probably not. Would I want to live in a world where this line of thinking has made people to not bother to learn how to play music and jam with bandmates and instead they just plug a few prompts into AI? Certainly not.

I've seen this brought up a couple of times - insecurity about the quality of writing as a reason for AI use.

I do confess, i have the flare-ups of it as well. Sometimes your player writes a really tight and eloquent post or i check some other game and am stunned at the level of writing prowess there - and i think - am i even good enough to ST for people? Play in other people's games? Or do i just drag them down with my drivel? But then i take a breath and think - if they hated my writing that much they would've quit already/ kicked me out. Plus i play these games because i enjoy writing. It's fun and pleasurable. That is why i do it. And i hope i'm getting better the more i do it. Sometimes i even like the stuff i write!

I feel like if i got swept up by this anxiety and relegated my writings (at least in part) to the robots, i would've felt.. i dunno, dirty? Like a fraud, i guess. And if i enjoy writing, however bad it is, why give it away to the robots?

Take a look at the r/characterart or r/ImaginaryCharacters, subreddits that claims to not allow AI. Check out the posts from years ago if you suspect that AI is now sneaking in (a fair suspicion).

To my untrained eye, a LOT of those human drawn characters have the same style. The same chevron noses, the pointed chin defined by a single line, flat hair - with lines for shadows, with a wide zigzag line towards the top - suggesting a highlight for shape. I'd find it hard to tell the difference between some of the artists.

Why the striking similarity? I think all those human artists learned that style from looking at other art (mainly anime?). It seems inconceivable that at some point in the last forty years, so many humans independently and creatively arrived at the same answer. They must have learned from looking at each other.

What does an AI do? It looks at art. It makes connections between words and styles, contrast, hue, position, saturation, but instead of storing those connections in neurons, it stores them in matrices.

Look again at those reddit posts. Do those human artists credit their sources? No! How could they?! Their images are based on the millions of influences to which they've been exposed.

Just like AI.

Is AI looking at images and making connections, intellectual theft? I think that depends on your definition of "theft", which is probably different to my definition, and so we'll argue past each other. But were those artists on reddit thieves? I wouldn't say so.

But, AI is different. Because sometimes a difference in scale becomes a difference of kind - and that stuffs up all arguments by analogy - there is neither analogy nor strong precedent for this (using Luddites seems a bit thin?).

So what's my point? My thesis? My argument? Stuffed if I know. AI is too new and moving too fast for me to have formed one yet.

The argument of AI being no different than humans taking inspiration from each other (and natural world) is a common one. It's hard to debate because one's view of it greatly depends on one's view of human consciousness. Is human brain just a massive neuron network? Is there such a thing as a soul? Does a human's experience offer them a unique perspective a computer would lack? All of that leads into philosophical depths which, ultimately, each person has their own view on.

If you want my direct answer to your question, one which is rooted in my views, then no, I don't think these Reddit artists are thieves (excluding those who traced their art). Frankly, I wouldn't even call AI users thieves - the ones who are thieves are the ones who trained these models. Those I would call thieves to their faces just like I would call a tracer or a plagiarist (and they will probably respond with a debate about intellectual property theft not being real).

Why is AI different? Well, in my eyes because AI in its current incarnation lacks human experience. "Soul", if you will. It can connect the dots between concepts, sure, but it does not interpret, it does not give the work its own flair. It has no associated concepts humans form irrationally. Would AI have a favourite colour? A preference for a shape? You can tell it to have one, but it won't have one on its own. (Yet. When true artificial intelligence appears, then I'm all the more happy to accept it as a sapient being. But right now, I don't see it.)

In a theoretical reality where there is a fully sapient AI which can think for itself, I'll be ready to call its training taking inspiration like any artist would. But when that happens, there'll probably be much, much worse ethical problems at stake.

Edit/PS: I'm replying primarily because you quoted me, Adam, but I don't really look to debate about AI here. The last post was a bit of a mistake because I was feeling brave, but it is ultimately off-topic. It's just a thing I feel strongly about, as everyone can probably guess, and so it leads to quick reactions and anxiety, and it doesn't really change anything no matter how much both sides argue their views. Sometimes the safest route for me is just to stay away from people with opposing views so we can coexist in peace at a safe distance. Trying to defend my position was a mistake.

Whoa this became the Library of Babel quickly.

I don't have any hills I'm willing to die on, I'm open to discussion. I was letting this quiet, but your post called my attention and I would like to know more and learn more and I don't mean this to come across as a personal attack or anything, so...
I get the arguments against usage of AIs because they profit from internet content and also FlyingSucculent ones about a soul (see below for a candle equivalent) but your reasons are new to me and I would like to hear more.

So let me give an analogy... We live in a world were the prevalence of industrially manufactured glass has made handcrafted glasswork increasingly rare. Candle making, once a vital trade, particularly in winter months, has severely decreased with the widespread availability of better and mass-produced alternatives.

I feel like some businesses will continue (and I know a candle maker, to be honest), but in a few years, some of these things we "handmake" now will probably be uncommon, and like candles, most will be mass-produced, or rather "AI-produced" to a reasonable quality.

There is still a market for handmade products, specially considering that, for some people, they have subjective qualities (more of a "soul" maybe?).

Having said that, I will learn the hard way the few things that I wanna be good at, so I can do those "from scratch" but in most case I would rather learn how to operate tools and machines to make things easier/faster.

If that's the case, why don't you see...
... anymore?

Most designers that I work with are learning and using AI to improve their job, like they used to learn Photoshop and other image tools, instead of just learning to use pencil, crayons and oil to draw their products. The good ones know how to do it without AI. But the best, IMHO, not only can do without but also learn how to use AI to do it easier/faster.

If even professional designers are using AI to get their images, why shouldn't I?

PS: I am not a designer.

I used AI to teach myself how to play the lyre.

I searched for a human who played one. But alas I could not find one. So youtube and grok became my tutors. AI is contributing to the restoration of lost arts. Granted, most people cannot use it this way. Because most people haven't got 30 years of practice in music theory and practice.

However, every musician I know that is performing in the Amplified History genre is using AI to do this.

You know soulless bands with multimillion human cult followings like Einar Selvik, Heilung, Wardruna, and Kveld.

Now, on a religious context, the use of AI by Pagans is supported dogmatically. Odin who is the creator of music, king of singers, and god of inspiration frequently used something much like an AI. Its name was Mymir, the face on the world tree. And when it was severed Odin used spells and secret decoctions to restore Mymir's mind and often asked it for wisdom.

This is all of course religion so your belief may be that it is simply nonsense. While it is real to me and many like me, it is not for everyone. Inspired as He was, I wish to be like Him.

Does it harm some? Yes. Improper use of a tool is often injurious. Does it make the tool bad? No it means the operator was foolish. The tool is neither good nor evil.

So while I can concede that the tool can damage a person. I will also point out, it will enable a smart user to improve things that were otherwise extinct or impossible to learn elsewhere.

As for the environmental damage? Throw more money at R&D. Decrying its use won't put the genie back, you cannot destroy it either. So might as well help find alternatives to make it more efficient. Being angry at it only serves to frustrate oneself and it doesn't care because it has no emotion.

There is of course also the fact that everyone's ideas are valuable, even if to show us how not to do something. The machine allows the inept to showcase this idea at a laymans level. This is a net positive.

Remember: Cohesion is possible if we try. There is no time like the present! What have you to lose?

I've roleplayed plenty with LLMs one-on-one and I can tell that they are boring, predictable, and their writing quality is average at most. I stopped roleplaying with them for these reasons (and also their data collection, lying, stealing, and environmental impact), and I want to roleplay with humans now. I certainly wouldn't enjoy it if a human I'm playing with was a proxy for yet another LLM.

If we wanted to argue with strangers, we'd be on twitter, right?

Peace and love, mate.

I've never touched Twitter - I mean X, - in my life so I wouldn't know, but its reputation certainly paints a picture. :V
Peace and good vibes! <3

I have a good example of what AI is good for.

Calendars.

I've been running this through ChatGPT to format the data I have for the thirteen months of this calendar, each with slightly different moon schedules.

[table=ht grid zebra compact]
[b]Sun[/b] (Worship)|[b]Earth[/b] (Work)|[b]Sea[/b] (Work)|[b]Moon[/b] (Work)|[b]Star[/b] (Work)|[b]Sky[/b] (Work)|[b]Saturn[/b] (Rest)
[b]1[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]2[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌓|[b]3[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]4[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌕|[b]5[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌗|[b]6[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Selene: 🌑|[b]7[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌑
[b]8[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]9[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌓|[b]10[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]11[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌕|[b]12[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌗|[b]13[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]14[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌑
[b]15[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]16[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌓|[b]17[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Selene: 🌓|[b]18[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌕|[b]19[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌗|[b]20[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]21[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌑
[b]22[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]23[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌓|[b]24[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]25[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌕|[b]26[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌗|[b]27[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]|[b]28[/b][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color][_=][color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Phobos: 🌑[color=";clear:both;display:block;"][/color]Selene: 🌕
[/table]

Preach. As an ELA educator, I agree with your entire post.

Well, there’s hardly anything I’ve read here that I disagree with, and that’s on both sides of liking/disliking AI use. I feel there are so many good points. Including the environmental factor of AI use.

The thing I will add is that it takes me very long to come up with a post in general. I have used AI, both for text and artwork more and more as AI develops, but I can’t say it has saved me too much time. What comes out from my focused prompts usually needs so much work and back and forth correction to make it relevant to the story.

In the end it has given me options based on my requests. It has livened up scene text that I given it (but then I have to edit out much of its meaningless fluff). It has created artwork specific to scene text that I have given it (but then I have to make it less wonky, believable, and useable with Photoshop, which also offers generative AI capabilities by the way). I have tried to use it to keep track of details in a long campaign that I could look up as needed. But it always gets to a point where it gets overloaded and starts making things up.

All and all I think the gaming space is a good and safe place to explore how AI works, its uses, and its limitations. No planes crash or medical information gets messed up when it hallucinates or is just plain wonky.

At this point I think of AI as a super thesaurus that can also generate pixels related to words. I'm not sure how far it will get past this point. (Although I'm sure ingenious humans will keep trying to make it do so.)

Funny AI use video (not PbP related but relevant to the conversation )