[OOC] Game/Rules Talk and Discussions

Feel free to place questions about the game/campaign, rules, etcetera here.

Right now. I would like everyone to be familiar with the Fate Rules, and the specific combat rules from the Heroic Fantasy Handbook. This changes a little bit from the Adventurer Conqueror King System by quite a bit, and gives combat a much more epic feel.

Remember that it was the young Duke himself (20-ish) who vanished about three years ago, without marrying or having an heir. There were no other relatives available to claim the ducal throne.

How do you intend on handling Fate Point replenishment, if at all?

Just taking a play from Mowgli. A duke is generally a cousin or brother of the king. Perhaps, the young Duke rose to power after the heir apparent was thought killed while travelling perhaps to rule the duchy?

Just spitballing ideas here.

Also for a proficiency point, gymnastics?

All three Fate Point replenishments are in effect: Spending, Resting at a Pinnacle, and Gaining a Level of Experience.

Oh, I see now. You're referring to the establishment of the Duchy some 1000 years ago (in game)? That might be a bit of a mystery for now.

If you mean, Acrobatics? I'll allow it as a class proficiency. Similar style classes do have it as a class proficiency so it would make sense that the Beastmaster does to. Just take something else off your class proficiency list.

Glad to be here on the Game Forum boards. First tour through looks great. Nice work, GM ShadowKnight! Very cool map, pictures, doctrine of the religions, etc.
I'll take time this week to study the specialized combat system and the Fate rules.

Other PCs sound cool as well - nice work also to the Players' Club. I'm especially looking forward to CB's Occultist. Sounded like some interesting story threads y'all were weaving on the Recruitment board. Very interesting if running parallel ("underground"?) the mainstream big league religions there is a secret society / recondite order of a few mysterious occultists - even the rumor of such - delving in the secret arts and alternative divine encounter methods. I'm thinking it over on what Aundovald's relationship with religion is.

A couple of setting questions:

1) How much does the normal population (and by extension my PC) encounter magic like wizardry, divine religious miracles, eldritch spells, witch hexes, sorcery, ritual, etc.? I know the general idea of "low-magic" and "the risk of dark magic" - so I feel pretty certain there's no local magic store downtown Redstone or anything - but just trying to get the feel of just how exotic these sort of power displays and interactions with magic-users are for the daily life of an Averancian. And what sort of reaction does it get from the common folk - generally.

2) From reading the regional map entries, it's clear that halflings are present openly within the local society. Are other races like elves, dwarves, etc. more like fabled or at least very distant people seldom encountered? Or are those type of folk walking around in the town like a percentage of the everyday population?

Thanks for all your work. Looking forward to this game.

As a Nobiran, you are aware of the power of the Nobiran bloodline and know that some of the Nobiran race are powerful wizards. You may have met one once or twice in your lifetime, but it is a rare event. Ceremonial magicians will be much more common in the setting. (On the Old Continent it's a different story for a variety of reasons, but because of the wars that are currently waging between multiple factions across the continent, war wizards are a much needed commodity and are being purchased/hired by the governments as fast as they can raise the funds to do so.)

Elves are exceedingly rare in the island continent; humans and halflings will be the majority of the common people. Part of the reason for this is that Elves hail primarily from the farthest part of the Old Continent (the Islands of Elunara). There, on the farthest eastern part of the continent, the Elves are living out their own conflicts. Spellsingers have fled their traditional homelands to avoid being pressed into war wizardry. (To find out more than that, your character would need to talk to a Spellsinger.) The Dwarves also are very much tied to their own kingdoms and underground demesnes; many dwarves are superstitious about crossing open waters. As a Nobiran living in the area (assuming you are also from Redstone), you may have met one or two of the Dwarven Vaultguards who were able to sail to the new continent for curiosity' sake, but it is almost certain that if there were more than that in Averancia, they would have gone back to the Old Continent when the adventuring guilds pulled out.

Generally magic outside of the Church of Elion or not from loremasters that meet with the approval of the Church of Elion is regarded suspiciously, though the "flavor" of magic can effect how it's viewed. Antiquarian ceremonial magic is the use of herbs and symbolic elements to alter fate and control elements. This is known as "White Magic" because it is generally viewed as non harmful. And if harmful magic is used with Antiquarian ceremonial magic (such as a curse or damaging spell) it is pretty obvious what the intent of it is.

So, there may actually be white magic shops where one can purchase ceremonial implements, healing herbs, or even lesser magical items crafted for ceremonial use. But these would be relatively rare and even hidden by the community unless the one asking about such services has proven themselves an ally.

Chthonic ceremonial magic (black and red robes, dark chants, blood offerings) is generally seen as "evil"/harmful, even when it used for good purposes. For this reason, most Chthonic ceremonies are performed in secret by the Loremasters and Occultists who use it.

Liturgical ceremonial magic is the traditional rites of the priesthood. It uses holy water, incense, white candles and other devices that are generally considered positive in the community.

Runic ceremonial magic is seen as an older type of magic but not any more hostile or dangerous than Liturgical ceremonial magic. The general belief is that it is the same source of magic, just from an older pre-Elionian civilization.

Sylvan ceremonial magic is a little bit more suspicious. The weird witches who live by themselves on the edge of society may practice natural magics, but they could also dip into diablerie as well. If you need a curse cast on an enemy, these are the ones you go to, but the cost is usually higher than you expect. The general belief in society is that those who practice sylvan ceremonial magic are not exactly outside the law or outside the favor of the church, but they are skirting it.

Theurgical ceremonial magic is the traditional magical style of a strong and ancient order of Loremasters that have some ties with the Church of Elion, so it is usually viewed positively by society, even if it is a little odd. This style of magic also uses holy water, holy symbols, and a sacred altar. The rituals of Theurgical magic are not tied to any deity though and represent a direct call on the Cosmic Forces of Nature that form and ongoingly shape the universe. (Think Freemason rituals.)

What is common knowledge, especially to a Nobiran, is that magic can corrupt the soul of those who use it. Dark Magic especially is corrupting, and some of the most powerful war wizards have embraced that corruption completely, but others have found ways (secret and possibly even more corrupting and harmful ways) to diminish or prevent that corruption. For example, many war wizards on the Old Continent embrace the destructive power of Despoiling, which corrupts the land around them instead of their souls when they cast darker magics. Many of the Zaharans have also learned to cast blood sorcery by using the blood of beings sacrificed to darker powers to prevent their own corruption, or at least to alter the corruption so it acts more as a blessing than a curse.

Man I wish I could play a Freemason Demon Binder

Also all the blood magic.

What happens when Rafn eats magical beasts?

Ummm... Nothing? Unless you're talking about a ritual, in which case you would need to either take a proficiency that grants you ritual knowledge or get someone who has that knowledge to assist you. Also, I'm not sure what your other animal companions might think about you eating magical beasts unnecessarily.

Mmm Seidr and Hammrammr. Delicious.

There are already well established rituals and incantations for this the ancient ways. While I am not necessarily an expert, my own ritual grants me immense power in terms of recovery and pound for pound strength.

I was raised on mushroom tonics, and organ meat. That itself is a ritual and recipe for strength and endurance. Some people have seen me lift 1000lbs and hold it for several seconds on video. I could certainly describe the techniques my ancestors passed forward. It will all look very familiar if you are well versed in Shamanism.

Wow - a wealth of information. Thanks for the thorough answer. This really sets the stage and clarifies .

?!? Ha! I might be losing the ball on this one - Is this entry about the PC or the Player? lol
Looking forward to the video of the 1000 lb shamanistic deadlift. Let's GOOO!!

I agree, that's interesting. Shamans have some interesting abilities.

Far off on a 1000lbs deadlift. I am a wee lad of only 100kg. My lifetime best was 715lbs. I would need to get on steroids. Not opposed to it, but too poor to afford the gear. Still I am proud of that. The 1000lbs lift was a rackpull I did back in 2022, back when I was ~260lbs. Sadly I am old now. I may never return to my glory days.

But still training and still gaining.

A slight mechanical note regarding combat rolls.

In ACKS, rules as written, combat is generally mechanically inferred as Roll a number or higher to succeed, the Armor Class of the creature is added to the number.

I, personally, am not a fan of this as it is a little confusing for me. So, in my head, I translate it to a system more like D&D 3.0/3.5; I add 10 to the creature's AC and add a number to the d20 die roll equal to your combat modifier (Which is + (10-whatever number it says you need to roll))

This does not change the number you actually need to roll to hit.

I personally feel like my method is a bit more streamlined, but you are free to see it either way as the mechanics of the roll are the same.

This does not actually change the way the game is played at all, but I did want to let people know I was doing it that way in my head just in case other people wanted to do the same thing, and for transparency.

An Example: In rules as written, a person with 9+ to hit is fighting a goblin with AC 1. The 1 is added to the 9+, meaning that the player has to roll a 10+ to hit. In my method, the person has +1 to hit and is fighting a goblin with AC 11, meaning that the player has to roll a 10+ to hit.

I don't think I've ever come across a scenario where my method is not the same (mechanically) as the original rules, but if anyone wants to put their opinion in, please feel free. Or if you have some other scenario where there is a difference.

Mathematician/statistician in RL, here. The two methods are algebraically equivalent.

Read ":=" as "defined to equal"

Let AT := Attack Throw
Let AC := Armor Class
Let x := d20 roll.

Standard method: Success := x >= AC + AT

You define "Combat Modifier" (CM) as 10 - AT. So you have at first:
Success := x + CM >= AC + 10
Expand CM into its definition
= x + 10 - AT >= AC + 10
Subtract 10 from both sides and add AT to both sides:
= x >= AC + AT

QED

Okay, the faiths and philosophies that would be known to your characters (as natives of the Duchy of Averancia) are up in the world building forum. These are the "European" and Elven-based philosophies. There are other cultures besides the "European" one, but for the most part you haven't interacted with any of them.

I know there's an "Oriental" culture and an "Arabic" culture that will have slightly different belief systems, but those would be very alien to most people familiar with the "European" culture. Oh, and the Thrassians. They are a little bit alien to the "Europeans" also.

I love it

Let me clarify this a little. Most of the faiths and philosophies that have been posted your Character will be somewhat familiar with (they will probably not know all of the tenets and such unless it is a faith/philosophy they adhere to), but the information here is what you players need to know to roleplay what your character knows. (I hope that makes sense.)

@Shadowknight, if it is OK with you, when I post in cabin font, that is an indication that I am trying to whisper, or at least taking deliberate steps so as not be heard/noticed outside my immediate are.

Sure. That works.

when you post in cabin fontyou should make it small. Large feels like you are yelling.

:D Any different font would do. I picked cabin because it isn't fully "filled in"—it's about half whitespace. I make it large because it's harder to read at normal size.

So it is madness, yes, but with a soupçon of method.

When Rafn posts in this font, something is about to die

Then I hope our foes see that often.

Indubitably

Guys, I'd like some thoughts/feedback on what you may think would be the most interesting story. I struggled when deciding on which spells and proficiencies to take. I have two characters in mind and can't pick.

In one version, I wanted to min/max the WIS + Performance + Crafting to make ceremonial trinkets with as little risk as possible. That version of Wilfrid would go hard into the black magic Death and Summoning. He would be a skilled singer and calligraphy artist. His fingers and robes would perpetually be stained with inky black smudges from his constant writing. With him, he would carry a case full of sheets of vellum. Many of these are penned with beautiful copies of poems or stories that he sells or gives as gifts. Others are his secret ceremonial trinkets, stored spells to be cast. He would secretly cast something like Choking Grasp or Cause Light Wounds, while also casting Cure Light Wounds regularly. In part because he enjoys the sense of superior benevolence it gives him, and in part to avoid suspicion of the other, dark magic he knows.

In the other version, I wanted a his worst stats as his prime requisites. While he is no fool or idiot, his ego inflates his sense of self. He uses his magic to gain influence (Mystic Aura) and Seduction. He would cast Charm Person and Ensorcellement. He revels in having power over others and being one of the important people in the room.

Both of these character archetypes are cool. But I also have a vision of Wilfrid casting Conjure Cacodemon Spawn. He would love having power over these otherworldly demons. He would believe that summoning these creatures and controlling them is acting on Elion's tenants, bringing these dark creatures under the power of the light. Of course he would know that revealing such a black magic would get him arrested or killed, but that's because those peasants and unenlightened are too idiotic to understand that he is serving Elion, truly. While I love this dark secret, I'm not sure how this would fit in the game world. Choking someone out could be hard to pin on him as black magic. But having demons under his control for a day at a time is a giant red flag.

Wilfrid Aelwynd: https://gamersplane.com/characters/custom/30513/

@Constablebrew My thoughts are that it seems as all three characters are leaning heavily into the possibility of chaos and corruption. Even your second option is going to amass corruption when casting charm person as its duration is greater than an hour. @Shadowknight (SK) is only allowing Lawful and Neutral characters, and I don't see how any of your choices will survive more than a few encounters without an alignment shift or a slew of disfigurations, if SK allows that option. Ceremonialists still gain corruption from black magic (page 114), perhaps a little more slowly than eldritch casters, but inevitable. For the purposes of this campaign, it may be wiser to stick to the white and acceptable grey.

I dont know what is chaotic about an apex predator eating anything.

I think it comes down to modern humanity. Absolute goodness is absolute evil. You cannot dictate absolute morality because morality is subjective. Only objective truths may be absolutes.

Mankind "rebels" into slavery. Or is it that the slavers, dogmatists, demonize that which is beyond their understanding? Or perhaps the very notion of good and evil was accurately described by the ancients and it doesn't matter ultimately because we humans are simply food for Set.

Good and evil, are this or that.

That said, I am firmly neutral. Whatever the rules say are rules are the rules.

My recommendation is to start with grey or white magic, even if you feel drawn to use black magic, I wouldn't use it right out of the gate. Let that part build up in the story to a suitable climax, where it feels like a life or death situation or something equally dramatic. And then as your character gets used to the corruption and the mutations it becomes easier and easier to use black magic. At least, that is how I would play it... kind of like an addiction. That being said, keeping such secrets (even from your fellow player characters, potentially) will have a major part in the story. A part that many might find interesting and intriguing. If in doubt, just refer to the forum rules. Avoid interpersonal drama; avoid disruption; aim for shared storytelling and inter-character drama. And remember, this is a gritty campaign; I will let those decisions play out as I think they would for the characters, sometimes with negative repercussions.

@Jomsviking ACKS alignment isn't so much about good vs evil (it is, but not too much), but more so chaos vs order.

@Shadowknight The drug addiction analogy is a great one. We are on the same page

I agree that I should start with a white or gray magic spell, if anything so that he has a game mechanic that can be used regularly and not completely neuter himself. The black magic would definitely be a very closely held secret and very rarely used. He will work hard to avoid using the black magic unless absolutely necessary. In story terms, I'd be looking to use the black magic when it would be an epic tilt and exciting for everyone.

@Avraham the duration of the spells doesn't impact corruption, only the intent of the use. Charm person is explicitly on the black magic list and would always incur corruption. Ensorcellement or possibly Slumber are gray magic and may be used carefully.I don't have to play the occultist - pretty much every other class is available to me. If it's a hard pass for you, let me know and I'll spin up something less disruptive. If you're ok with it tho, I'm prepared to see my character come to an untimely end if that is what it takes to make an amazing and memorable story. If any of those three variations pique your interest more so than the others, let me know. I'm stumped.

Yeah I have read a *lot* of theology. I myself am a being of order and see the world in terms of harmony and discord myself.

In this game, I am playing The Prophet.

Paradise lies to the west fellow Primals. Will you join my quest for the Sun?

Okay, we should have all characters up now. Do you all want to start the official campaign on Friday, or Monday. If you're thinking about going with a different class, Constablebrew, we might want to wait until Monday. You can get the same feeling for the type of character you are talking about by playing a Loremaster or even an Ecclesiastic. Occultists are definitely more of the variety of embracing Chaos instead of resisting it. But I leave it up to you. I could see this character having a huge fall and redemption cycle as an occultist (Hmmm, a novel idea maybe.)

Whatever works for the group. @Constablebrew, take the time you need to make a character you would enjoy playing which first inside of @Shadowknight's guildines :)

Sorry, fellas. I've had some unusually busy days at work so haven't been able to comment much on the boards. I aim to catch up tomorrow (Friday) evening.

That's not a problem for me as my internet service was wiped out from 10:30 am to 12:30 am from a cut fiber optic cable they couldn't find. (Yay.) Because of the delay, I am definitely considering starting the campaign on Monday. On the good news, I do have an artist working on a map for the Old Continents.

I have posted some (very rough) continental maps on the lore forums. One in reference to the Old Continents. The other shows the Duchy of Averancia in relation to the Island Continent (or at least, it's assumed to be an island continent. I don't think anyone has sailed around it yet to confirm.)

Which leads to the question, What do People Call the Island Continent? As there is only one nation on the continent, as of yet, according to the Old World, the people that come from the Old Continents from time to time simply call the whole area Averancia, as a generic title. Whether or not this has anything to do with the discoverer of the Continent or anything remotely similar remains to be seen.

No, no, no! Far be it from me to dictate what you want to play and how! You asked for feedback on your ideas, and I gave my feedback based on how I interpreted them and my understanding of Shadowknight's requirements. This is a game, and it is an imagination-based game, so the last thing I want to do is mess up someone else's enjoyment.

That being said, my character is going to be a Lawful Chosen of Elion. So while not as absolutely militantly anti-demon as St. Lutharine, between purity of soul and the flame of righteous judgement, I will have to role-play him as having a problem with someone corrupted-from-the-start. If you go the "addicted" route, that's different. My character won't know in the beginning, and perhaps we can role-play helping to overcome it, but eventually, strongly religious characters (e.g. Chosen or Ecclesiastics) will need to role-play conflict with the corrupt or run the risk of losing their own powers.

The Occultist is not a "Hard Pass" for me. I had set up the instructions to prevent characters devoted to Chaos from being in the same party as characters devoted to Law; that way, the characters wouldn't be trying to kill one another right off the bat: but I can see how a neutral occultist could be swayed by darker powers in a believable way (and then meet an untimely end or become the slave of some Demonic Overlord or something like that - Hmmm, Darth Vader much?) and that is an incredible story in and of itself (Especially if the pacing is done correctly, etcetera - better than good ole' George did it anyway).

Those are big numbers, guy. Right on.
Hail to the Scandinavian Power Lifter Class. Strong genetics. Even STRONGER Folk Spirit.

Yes, we have to train until we die. Embrace the Struggle. LET'S go.

Makes sense. All the posts on the religions and factions are outstanding. Nice work, DM.

These both sound very cool. That one artistic guy acting kind of weird handing out scrolls to people sounds like he could generate some captivating scenes with an unsettling atmosphere. Dig it.

I'd enjoy hearing more about this.
Jomsviking - bro, you are starting to strike me as a kóryos leader type of lad. I'm down for the quest for the Setting Sun.

Yes overall, I'm looking forward to that Occultist character story arc. Sounds like some good ideas already.
High suspense potential.
Mystery-maxing.

I read a lot of Jack Donovan, The way of men and Being a barbarian. I am also strongly aligned with his Solar Idealism.

I particularly like his criticism of society emasculating men, and I try to incorporate as much of that in my play and writing as possible. So yes I think Kóryos is the right word. I never did marry. A king needs a kingdom, not a queen.

If I happen to inspire that is a joy for everyone.

Stay Solar

Solar like Apollo.

Right on. I'm generally familiar with Donovan - not a fan of him in total package, but some of his themes are surely based. Paul Waggener is the superior voice of that former crew imo.

This Beastmaster of yours here is going to be a savage I feel certain.

Starting GP

I'm going to make a rule a little clearer here since it is often passed over with great ease. (And Lash, feel free to correct me if I'm doing this wrong.)

You add your ability score modifier to any proficiency rolls that they would be suitable for.

So if you have thief abilities, you would require your Dexterity or Wisdom modifier depending on the type.
Ceremonial spellcasting is a type of proficiency that would require the use of the Intelligence modifier.

Other proficiency rolls benefit from these modifiers, so please keep that in mind as you are rolling checks.

@Shadowknight, nothing I own is more than 10gp, so am I safe with my equipment given the marketplaces (IV should have 5 of 2–10)?

Yes, And of course, not everything has to have been purchased in Redstone. Some of you may have made your way to Redstone from Market Town, which has a slightly better economy.

With a Market Rating of IV/V a beastmaster has a reaction of 3/2 which is pretty awful.

Is it safe to assume Rafn is just illegally camped out for the day and happens to fall in with the adventurers?

Lets not get run out of town by a pitchfork weilding mob just yet.

I don't see a problem with that, except that your character would be missing out on official recognition (and potential rewards as a result). But we'll think of something.

@Shadowknight, I have not added any Fate points to Ængus's character sheet. Should I, and if so, how many?

All characters start with 4 + Wisdom modifier Fate points (That's also their max for right now.)

Good looking dog Brutus. Is that an Australian Shepherd?

AI-created image of a Border Collie.

Definitely dont feel punished for that. Its nice to see someone actually enforce these rules. The penalty makes the class on its otherwise extremely powerful set of abilities feel well thought out.

Looks like stuff is kicking off already! I'll catch up and post tonight. Just started a new job today, so I'll be learning what my new schedule is like and what my regular post times will be. In any case, expect some mental criticism of the plebs.

I hope you are enjoying the conversations so far. I'm trying to play Amberstead as a master diplomat and one that is definitely skilled with words and politics.

I love it very well done DM!

Good show. Yes, Amberstead seems like an agreeable fellow, making appeals and compliments but inherently needs to fulfill his own interests and responsibilities.

I thought that Aundovold would have naturally taken up a leadership role, but it seems he is actually deferring to Aelwynd. This should be interesting.

Ha. Yeah I might hope to see Aundovold progress to a leadership tendency in the long term, but right now his deference to Aelwynd seems like the obvious choice. If that turns out to be unclear, Aundovald may reconsider - though he would think it odd to be otherwise.


Aundovald is only 17 years old, and at this point has questions in his mind about his own legitimacy and station. Also he is a Traditionalist. He yearns for the restoration of a legacy order and vibrant civilization. Inherent in that is his acceptance of traditional hierarchy and general recognition of the leadership roles and responsibility of the aristocracy.

So unless he formally defers, Master Arlwynd is the default superior in this unfamiliar situation, within Aundovald’s worldview.

And yes though, I too think Aelwynd’s response will be quite interesting.

So I kind of felt like that fight scene left out some of our player characters. (The dice screwed us on that one. 2d4 should have resulted in more than 3, but I felt like fudging it to make it more than that wouldn't have been right.) So here's what I'm going to implement, if it meets with your approval.

First of all, how do you all want to divide experience? I was originally going to just have it divided equally among everyone, but I'm open to other suggestions.

Next, if it meets with everyone's approval, I would like to implement a post-battle roleplaying conversation scene. It's not a scene that immediately follows but if you get to a tavern or some other base of operations, if you all spend some time roleplaying and talking about the battle: tactics, general ideas, perhaps even coming up with scenarios or something where you are truly trying to learn from the battle and come up with possibilities in the future, I will double the experience points you got from that encounter, and these additional experience points will be divided among everyone participating in the conversation scene.

What I am trying to implement here is the characters getting to know one another; especially on what they can rely in combat, strategies and tactics; an awareness of one another's character powers, spells, and abilities, and other elements like that.

I'm fine with the combatants getting the XP for the kills. Wilfrid played his part and let the rest do the dirty work. He will weigh in on the RP conversation - it's a great idea. I will get that post up later tonight, either starting the conversation or continuing it if others post before I get to tit.

I'm good with splitting XP or whatever system you want to come up with, DM ShadowKnight.
I think managing XP and progress advancement has always been a puzzle to figure out - and imo the rules as written leave something to be desired, not just for ACKS but for D&D broadly also. Seems like homebrew adjustments are more the normal trend than the exception.
Your idea of the post-event discussion sounds creative and worthwhile.

I think splitting xp like loot makes the most sense.

I also like the idea of an after action review.

My forays as being a DM back in the late 1980s were disastrous. I make a much better player than DM, at a table or otherwise, so I will leave it up to our DM.

If you want my advice anyway, I think it will lead to the least problems if the "appropriate" XP is split evenly and that the DM have a small bank of "extra" XP he can award to those he feels provided extra "spice" in their roleplay—be it combat, diplomacy, or really good scene setting for that matter.

Since the general consensus is to divide combat experience betwixt everyone in the group evenly, we'll go ahead and do that. And we'll have the post battle strategy session to double those experience points for anyone participating.

Wow @shadowknight, great intro into town! I'm mostly caught up now and will find time to post tomorrow evening.